advice needed urgently

[nothingbyhalves]

we have 2 rescue dogs, a collie and a terrier. The collie does bully the terrier somewhat, but nothing too major which is unmanageable. We have 13 month old twin boys. So far the dogs have really taken to the the twins. The boys climb all over our collie and she seems very happy. The biggest problem we've had is topping the collie from licking the boys.

However on saturday (2 days ago) as i was changing a one twins nappy, behind me I heard what sounded like the collie having a go at the terrier, as i turned around I was horrified to see the collie standing over the other twin. He was still sitting up so I don't think she actually touched him, but he was crying with fright. I immediately put the collie outside and she hasn't been near the boys since. ie not in the same room as them. DH said that the twins had developed the habit of "slapping" things and he had caught the boys slapping the collie earlier.

We have arranged for collie to go and live with my sister in law who has teenage children. Just so gutted. The collie was so affectionate with the boys and they are constantly looking for her. I think its a pack thing as in the collie thinks she is higher up in the pack than the boys.

Please has anyone out there got any experience of this situation? How did you deal with it? Obviously our priority is the twins. help!

Yes, I have experience but not from your side. I have experience of similar situations with dogs which have come into rescue.

I'm going to be completely honest with you although you may find this harsh. There has been enough damage caused already, please don't make it worse for the dog by retaining her or moving her from one place to another - this situation is NOT her fault. No child should be allowed to "climb all over" any dog, no matter how seemingly accepting the dog is. Added to that the Collie has been hit so it is totally unsurprising and understandable that she would react. It could have been much worse too.

I'd suggest that if the rescue you got the dogs from has a genuine, 100% NO KILL policy you return them there. If it isn't then I suggest that you identify a no kill rescue and ask them to take the dogs on - I'm more than willing to help you do that if you need me to. Either way you must, for the sake of the dog and everyone else who will come into contact with her, tell the whole story as you have here. This is not a pack issue, which is an idea which has largely been discredited anyway, but a simple matter of a dog telling your child that enough is enough.

I'm happy to help - I'm an independent network rescuer with no-kill rescue contacts across the country and am happy to refer you to any of a number of reputable rescues who will vouch for me. My priority is for the dog/s - I don't work for the owner or potential owner, nor any rescue and not for myself, I work for the dog. Please pm me if I can help.

why on earth did you allow your children to climb all over your dog?

Sorry but the dog is not at fault here - you are, given your children are still too young to know any different. The dog was just saying in her own way that she'd had enough and rightly so. If you hadn't allowed this behavior in the first place then it wouldn't have happened.

the reason i'm feeling so bad is because i know we are to blame. however when the boys start to get too heavy handed with the dogs we do step in. But do realise we are to blame.

I agree with Valhalla.

Allowing children to climb on dogs is the exact reason so many dogs do end up biting. They put up with it until the time when they can no more and then they resort to biting to protect themselves. I think it shows exactly how good natured your dog actually is that she didn't bite or react more to what happened.

I think that now it has got so out of hand, as Val says, rehoming somewhere permenantly and long term via a good no kill rescue is probably the best option for the dog. I hope you can find somewhere or Val can help you.

Nothing, please make sure both your dogs are rehomed. As a matter of interest, did you have your twins when you adopted your dogs? A rescue will often either not place dogs in a house with young children (precisely because of the situation you are in which is sadly very common) or will make a different assessment on which dogs might be suitable.

Having young children and dogs is a big challenge and you shouldn't feel bad at all if it is not for you. The important thing is to make sure the dogs find good, permanent homes where they are safe from small children. No dog should have to put up with children crawling over them or slapping them, and the dog should never be left alone with the children.

Entirely agree with what Val and others have said.

Boys are 1 and we've had the dogs for 4 years. I'm not sure what you mean by "Having young children and dogs is a big challenge and you shouldn't feel bad at all if it is not for you." Having dogs IS for us. can't imagine life without them.

Having dogs maybe for you, but you don't seem to be able to cope with having dogs and young children. I'd be livid if my children tried to climb on my dogs, let alone slapped them.

Poor dog.

You've been very lucky, one of my dogs would quite possibly have savaged your child if he thought he was trapped/at risk of being hurt.

Dd2 was 18 months old when we got him. She was taught from day 1 to respect his space.

Can the dog not just stay with SIL?

Nothing I am not quite sure what you are asking for help with . However as a Mum of two sets of twins myself and dogs I do know how hard it is you need four sets of hands and 16 pairs of eyes.

The dog was definitely not trying to pull rank on your DC.

Dogs and children can live happily together but you must have had the shock of your life to see the situation.

You could live with your collie and your boys but it would mean having very clear boundaries for both the DC and the dogs.

You would need a separate area where the dogs can be safe away from the boys - the dogs will need to spend time in here when you can not 100 supervise what is going on. (you may also find you need this for each twin as well - if yours are anything like mine!)

The dogs will probably need more exercise and stimulation so that they are happy to watch from their safe area rather than be involved. If you feel this can be achieved great - you will need to do this for your terrier anyway.

I actually have 5 DC's and 5 dogs and as my life evolved around them no problem but I don't do much else if I am honest! If you are happy for that and the pressure it will put on you then it can be done.

Equally if you do decide to rehome permanently then Val talks sense to me.

Nothing, sorry but dogs are NOT for you. You've already admitted that your children climb all over the dog and that they may have started "slapping" them. There are plenty of people on here who both parent small children and have dogs - they will tell you it is hard work and not easy. I have great respect for those who make it work.

In your case, it is clearly not working, and is unfair on you, your children and the dogs. Being the adult is about making hard choices on behalf of those who can't choose for themselves. Your dogs are being put in a situation where they are being bothered by your kids and are now reacting in the only way they know. Your children are doing this innocently and until you stop them you are putting them at risk. Sorry to be so blunt.

Scuttlebutter how can you say that - we know nothing about the OP except what she has said in her post. We all need to learn and surely that is what she is trying to do by posting on here?

There has been on incidence which has scared the life out of the op and she is working out what is best for all concerned

Our collie can live with SIL perm. I'm just devestated with the situation. Boys are being taught to respect dogs space, but they are 1. Its not something they are going to learn over night. minimu1 thanks for your advice. DOgs do have their own space where the boys couldn't get to them, where we sectioned off some of the living room, the dogs could get in and out as they pleased, but the boys couldn't get to them.

There has been ONE incident. when the twins have been heavy handed we have stepped in. How are babies supposed to learn? Are we supposed to keep babies and animals completely seperate until a certain age?

When we got preganat we took advice and have regularly from a vetanary nurse who has come to the house and observed the babies and dogs (she also happens to be a close family friend so would be brutally honest).

Twins have started "slapping" us too. As do lot of other toddlers out there. It is not something we encourage at all!

My heart is breaking here. I want the best thing for ALL my family. ANd my dogs are part of the family.

We are to blame here. But also I do think we've been unlucky. I want others to learn for our mistakes and our bad luck.

"Having dogs IS for us. can't imagine life without them"

That's what's called putting your own desores above that of the dogs' welfare and that of your own children. Your son was bloody lucky he wasn't bitten, don't you see that? It's only because the Collie is such a tolerant dog that it didn't happem, but if you continue to take the line you have, it will... this is an accident waiting to happen. Having dogs is not for someone who allows their children to "climb all over" them and who doesn't supervise them despite knowing that the children having been caught hitting the dogs.

YOU HAVE PUT AND ARE PUTTING YOUR KIDS AT RISK.

As well as allowing cruelty to the dogs.

Let's turn this on it's head. Imagine you coming to me and asking me (or ScuttleButter) to find you a rescue dog. We'd ask what you want and about your family - and as soon as you said you wanted a tolerant dog which your kids could "climb all over" you'd be told no. You would bot be suitable to adopt a dog, looking at matters retrospectively and by the same token you are not suitable to own a dog. Anyone who was suited to owning a dog would have never allowed her children to behave as they did with the dog to start with. The damage is now already done - and frankly I can tell you without a doubt that any decent rescue would be fuming at this tale and demanding that you return their dogs to them immediately.

As I said, I'm being harsh - but as I also said, my priority is the dogs. Yours is your children and if you really care about them you will rehome your dogs before something far more serious occurs.

minimu, I understand what you are saying, I agree that dogs and kids can be done from baby's first day on earth, (been there, got the T shirt) and I salute you for coping with 5 kids, much less 2 X twins and 5 dogs... but you have had the wit not to let this happen in the first place.

hang on.

1. Dogs are being re homed. thus we are putting safety first for all.
2. We ALWAYS supervise dogs and boys. incident happeneed when i was in the same room.
3. When boys started hitting the dogs on saturday. We told them off immediately.
4. We have caught boys crawling over collie once and it wasn't something tolerated or encouraged.

Under any circumstances I would be the one here critising. It drives me insane when people leave their dogs unsupervised with children, when people lock their dogs away in utility rooms, people don't walk their dogs sufficiently etc etc.

We are obviously crap. We are now dealing with consequences.

'The boys climb all over our collie and she seems very happy' - this was not true then?

Once. She was fine, but we stepped in anyway.

"4. We have caught boys crawling over collie once and it wasn't something tolerated or encouraged."

That is not how it came across, which is why you have received the response that you have. You stated in your OP that:

"The boys climb all over our collie and she seems very happy"

This makes it sound like a regular event. I'm not a mind-reader, I can only go on what you had put in your post at the time of replying.

I have 3 dogs and informally rescue others.
I also used to be a foster carer (of the human kind) so know what it is like to look after dogs and children, sometimes supervising new foster kids who thought it was normal to kick a dog as that was what they were used to.
I have also looked after very young children who were unable to vocalise.
I have never had a situation like you describe.
I am trying not to judge you harshly but please do not have any other dogs until your children are much older.
It breaks my heart to see the dogs in rescue with the sign 'cannot be rehomed with young children' when it is not the dogs fault.
Please listen to Val. I think you said in one of your posts 'when they get too heavy handed' you intervene. The point is they shouldnt be heavy or light handed with dogs.
I find it more worrying that you claim you were supervising them but this still happened

Nothingbyhalves - not sure if wading in here is a good idea as it's got a little bit heated, but just wanted to say that I think you've done the right thing, finding a new home for the collie. I also have a young child and a young dog, and I know how hard it must be to give the dog up, even when you know it is for the sake of both dogs and children. I love watching my two together, and would hate having to part with the dog. I waited years to be at home, rather than out at work, so I could give a dog enough time and attention and would be devstated if it wasn't working out so you have my sympathy. (My toddler also slaps, but me rather than the dog. We are also working hard to nip this behaviour in the bud. Will learn from reading this in case I see signs of her re-directing it). Hope that it does in the end work out for all of you -dogs, children and adults.

Hmm, I think that responses on this thread have been slightly unfair on the OP.

I agree that the OP was badly worded, and that you did give the impression that you let the dogs clamber over the dogs - not just once but constantly. You say that you step in when the boys get heavy handed - that makes it sound like it is not a one off occasion.

I think that small children and dogs don't mix. Our DC were 4yo and 6yo when we got our dog and it was a struggle to make them understand that they have to leave the dog alone - and they still have to be reminded on occasion. For babies or toddlers who have no impulse control and no conception of the consequences of their behaviour - I think that the only solution is to segregate dogs and children.

You need to keep the dogs away from the children - for both the dogs and the childrens' protection.