biting and muzzles

[dreamingofsun]

If a dog is likely to bite other ones why don't the owners put muzzles on them whilst walking? my dog is naturally friendly and tends to say hi to other dogs. its a miracle she hasn't been bitten.

Well a lot of people are idiots.

However something I didn't know before reading it here on mn shortly after getting my pup is how terribly bad manners it is to let you off-lead dog approach and "say hello" to an on lead dog. There are plenty of reasons why a dog might be on a lead (aggression to other dogs being one of them) but in some cases a dog's levels of nervousness/aggression can go up if they don't feel they can escape from a situation (because they are on a lead).

If my dog is off lead and we spot another dog off in the distance who is on lead, she goes back on lead until we have gone well past them..

I ALWAYS ask if my dog can come over and say hello. Some of the time the other dog owner says no. No problem. Conflict avoided.

Not saying you are guilty of this dreamingofsun but I'm AMAZED at the number of dog owners who think it's acceptable to do this.

What Slubber said. In fact I've just had a rant on another thread about the subject.

Don't allow your dog to approach onlead dogs. Problem solved. Even if the other dog isn't likely to bite, he might be nervous of other dogs/recovering from an op or whatever.

And even if the other dog is wearing a muzzle - what then? If you allow your dog to approach it, chances are there's still going to be a scuffle that will probably upset YOUR dog!

Oh and "naturally friendly and likes to greet" - so are/do most dogs.

However, sometimes what dogs like to do isn't what they should be ALLOWED to do.

if i spot a dog on a lead then yes i would keep my dog away from it. but a lot of the areas i walk in are quite heavily forested and you cannot always see who's approaching. its also very popular with dog walkers.

i still think that if you have a dog that is prone to biting you should do all you can to stop it. I see now, reading this thread, why so few are muzzled where i walk.

Sorry, why do you think so few are muzzled from reading this thread ?

I think if you have had several aggressive encounters (remember that a lot of unfreindly dog on dog meetings are usually resolved before biting occurs, dogs have lots of signals they give off before they (usually) reach their bite threshold) then the best you can do is make sure that your dog has a water tight recall and even off lead doesn't stray too far to where you can't see it.

slubber - mine is a spaniel and spends the walk scurrying around in bushes chasing squirrels etc - though i have a good idea where she is. luckily she is also very submissive

but if i had a dog that i knew was prone to biting i would put a muzzle on it. i couldn't bear the thought that it might bite another dog. seems i'm in a minority reading this.

mm

I can't see any anti-muzzle sentiment on this thread, and as a matter of fact I do agree with you. If I had a dog that was prone to biting other dogs then yes I would muzzle it, just as much for it's own safety as the other dog's.

Having a moan is fine but at the end of the day it is you as a dog owner who is responsible for your own dog's safety.

If you are frequently having aggressive dog encounters then you have two options, either speak to the owners of the other dogs directly or train your dog to seek permission from you before it greets other dogs off lead. You have the option then of asking the other dog owner if it is fine, or otherwise distracting and entertaining your dog and avoiding the meeting altogether.

or I guess there is a third option of getting dog wardens involved.

I would muzzle a dog if I needed to but a dog with a muzzle on can still do a lot of harm to another dog.

However I would never ever let my dogs approach another dog onlead or off lead unless I had the all clear from the owner.

Dogs should not run up to other dogs "yours may be friendly and naturally greets dogs" but not all dogs want to be greeted. They may not bite but can feel uncomfortable if another dog comes too close to them.

I agree that it is a miracle your dog has not been bitten if allowed to go up to any dog that she meets

Muzzles are horrible.

My last dog really hated boxers (had his eye accidentally hurt by a boisterous boxer, never forgave the breed). So, if we saw one we'd make sure he was under close control and warn the owner to keep their dog away. Their usual response would be 'oh, its ok he's friendly' - ours would be 'but ours isn't' - and then it was up to them to assess the threat level of a furious dachshund.

He was ok with other dogs (well, he liked scaring big GSDs etc by barking), it would have been ridiculous to muzzle just in case we met a boxer. Control and warning - assuming the other dog is also under reasonable control - is appropriate.

Why would anyone keep a dog that bites? .

My dog (bitch) can get very playful with other dogs and will mouth (not bite) and lick, for this reason she stays on the lead and we tend to avoid other dogs, i would be mortified if she bit another dog or if she got bitten. People should control their dogs or not walk them where they are likely to come in contact with other dogs.

if a dog is on a lead you shouldnt let your dog run up to it, it may bite it may be nervous, there are many reasons but surely common sense means stay clear of the dog, my last dog was kept on a lead as he was nervous around small dogs, he was big and he freaked out if they ran around his legs (once got bit on theunder belly by one!) so i kept him on a lead, he had never bit it was just so he felt safer, if your dog got bit after approaching a dog on a lead then i think its fair game and you wouldnt be able to moan as your dog ran up to (which could be seen as threatening) the dog on a lead!

so if its one of the narrower footpaths where there's little room to pass, or round a blind bend so no time to control/put dog on lead, or just my dog happens to jump out of the bushes chasing a squirrel near the other dog or its a puppy who's still learning and they get bitten because the other dog isn't muzzled and the owner wasn't quick enough to put it on the lead...its my fault and i shouldn't complain?

thankfully i have a bitch that is very wary of other dogs.

I'm just amazed that people in the forest where i walk, and also on here think its acceptable to take a dog out that is prone to biting without a muzzle. And put the responsibility for not getting bitten on the passive dog

Dreamingofsun You might want to have a read of this fantastic article. It's called 'He Just Wants to Say "Hi"!' and might be really useful for you. I've found it excellent

Personally, I would never allow our dog to approach other on-lead dogs (though she's free to say hello nicely to all off-lead dogs) as you don't know why they're on the lead. They could be recovering from an operation, old and sore (and thus grumpy!) the owner could be trying to help desensitise them to a fear of other dogs, etc, etc. I simply call her back and have her walk to heel or I catch her collar until they've gone by. On a blind bend I would call her back in advance anyway as I'd have no idea what was around the corner - something could be dangerous for my dog, or there could be a child on a bike who might be scared by suddenly coming across a big wet muddy grinning GSD .

I don't think the 'responsibility for not getting bitten is put on the passive dog' - but on the owner of that dog. Owners really do need to be able to control their dogs and keep them away from dogs which are on-lead (and thus legally defined as being under control) - that's what responsible ownership entails IMHO.

Laska, I want to give you a big soppy kiss!! If only all dog owners were as sensible, thoughtful and courteous as you.

When we walk our three, two are muzzled and generally stay on the lead (for assorted very good reasons) - I get very cheesed off with the out of control contingent who cheerfully let their dogs off lead, bounding all over us, and say "Oh, he/she is only being friendly".

And I can't help thinking - just how stupid are some people? Look, in the middle of a park, there's a lady with two greyhounds, they are both on the lead AND wearing muzzles, now she's taking avoiding action to get away from us, hmmmmm, let me see, how about I let my excited, bouncy pet harass her and her dogs? And when I call EBP, they will completely ignore me, much to my surprise.....

Aaargh....

Laska - thanks for the link to the article, what an intelligent and perceptive writer.

Brilliant article Laska, really interesting read.

"Laska, I want to give you a big soppy kiss!! wink If only all dog owners were as sensible, thoughtful and courteous as you."

I'd definitely take some greyhound snogs please!

It has been a learning curve for me though, and perhaps you need to have owned a dog who for whatever reason didn't need to be jumped on by other dogs. I'd not have automatically done it, but having had to walk ours on-lead when she had staples in her side (after being bitten) it was a total nightmare when other dogs came up. I also walked with a chap whose dog had had massive surgery for hip problems and after his crate rest he needed to have on-lead exercise only for months. Because he was a young, excitable boy when another dog approached he'd jump around, risking needing further surgery on his hips. These experiences have made me a bit more sensitive to on-lead dogs and keeping ours away.

That article is fab isn't it - Suzanne Clothier's book (Bones Would Rain from the Sky) is well worth a read - a slightly different perspective on dogs and their problems / desires / motivations!

This is all a bit topical for me at the moment. I am fostering a fear dog aggressive collie. He is a rescue and just is petrified of dogs. He is now getting on ok with my lot at home but out and about is just terrifying.

I am working on counter conditioning to the dogs and at the moment we can see calm quiet dogs from about 500 ft away and get no reaction from my dog. We are gradually getting nearer. I always have him on lead and the number of people that let their dogs chase over to us is just a nightmare. I now have a coat for him that has "dog in training do do approach on it" This is helping a bit but unfortunately most goldies cannot read!!

We all need to respect each others space and that really does include dog walking and recognise that not all dogs need and want to be approached by other dogs.

Me on the other hand - would love to be approached by all dogs!

I fear I have a rude dog

She is still technically a puppy which goes some way to excuse her yob like behaviour, not that I can explain that to other dogs though.

I'm quite apprehensive about going out to heavily doggified areas and frequently have to put her back on lead.

Thankfully I have some very understanding friends with equally understanding dogs who will tolerate only so much of her behaviour before giving her very clear 'ENOUGH!' warnings.

We're getting there.

I might get that book you've suggested Laska.

I have a fear aggressive collie. She WILL bite if another dog comes up to her. She is however well trained, I always put her on a lead if I see another dog and if she sees one first she will usually come back and lie down. If I can't get away from the other dogs I either walk past quickly or put her in a down and wait for them to go past. She would not charge up to another dog and attack it but if it comes too close she will almost always snap.
I am sad to think of all these people who want her to wear a muzzle on her walk.

i'm starting to understand why there are so many negative threads about dog owners on mumsnet.

dreamingofsun why are you surprised there are more negative threads abput dog owners.

All I have got from this thread is owners who recognise their dogs character and act accordingly to prevent this impacting on others.

It is unrealistic to assume that all dogs will be placid and laid back like your dog and want to meet all dogs. No harm in that surely?

Have I got it wrong? You think that you want to be able to walk you dog and at times not know where it is as it is chasing in the undergrowth and it is other dog owners who are responsible for the welfare of your dog?

Great article, now feel terrible for telling my dog off just today for growling at a big dog that came up to say 'hello'...

dreamingofsun I'd be really interested to know if you read the article I linked to, and what you thought about it?

I think this is in many ways a great thread, as it's not necessarily natural to assume that you should keep your dog clear of some other dogs (i.e. on-lead dogs - for whatever reason). So if a few more people reading this have a lightbulb moment, then that's a good thing, I'd have thought.

I think dogs should be under control (i.e. with very good recall or on-lead) for everyone's safety - not least their own. I'm genuinely interested to know why this could be construed as a negative