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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

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Original poster

Dogs got into a fight - now we're being sued!

56 replies

Scootergrrrl · 19/11/2010 10:25

Recently my dog, an old collie cross, got into a bit of a scrap with a smaller dog. Both dogs were off their leads.
We've just received a letter from the other dogs insurers who are now claiming the cost of vets treatment for the other dog running to almost a thousand pounds!
While I accept my dog was in the wrong, both dogs were off their leads and the fight wouldn't have happened if the other dog had been leashed - it was jumping around my older dog and my dog kind of rolled him before I got hold of him. The dogs have played together before so I didn't think it would be a problem for them to run around together.
Any advice? Are we liable for this bill?

OP posts:

HowAnnoying · 19/11/2010 12:17

Also if your dog has never reacted like that before, maybe it's worth taking him to the vets to see if he's OK.

WhyHavePets · 19/11/2010 12:17

Hmm, well it sounds like a scuffle not a fight. Dogs do tell each other off and the chances are that, if they were going off to play, the other dog knocked yours or was too boisterous or something and your dog was doing the "I am OLD and SORE be gentle" warning thing. It looks pretty full on but htere is usually no contact with teeth or anything so claiming a "fight" is a bit of a stretch IYSWIM.

I honestly think that, given the type of injury, they are going to have a very hard time proving it was related to the scuffle and, from your POV, you are going to have a hard time working out if your dog actually did this and - if he did - if it was because your dog was being bad or just one of those things.

WhyHavePets · 19/11/2010 12:18

xposts howannoying, great minds!

ilovemydogandMrObama · 19/11/2010 12:30

If you have insurance, and seems that you do, then the insurance companies will battle it out, just as if you were in a car accident.

I can see where this is going. Your insurance company arguing that it was an existing injury, the dog has to go and see an independent vet.

Just like personal injury cases!

Were there any witnesses at the time?

Original poster

Scootergrrrl · 19/11/2010 12:40

There was one other dog owner there so I wonder if she will have to become involved. To be completely honest, I think my dog was in the wrong to react as he did and told him off accordingly but I'm not sure I'm inclined to take all the financial blame!
Its even complicated by the fact we live in a very small tight-knit community, albeit a transient one, and its the kind of thing which has potential to blow up into a right royal to do.

OP posts:

VivaLeBeaver · 19/11/2010 12:41

Doesn't sounds like a fight at all, more like boistorous play. There is no way that anyone could say for 100% sure that your dog caused this injury. Could have happened when the other dog ran up to yours or was jumping about. I'd write back to the insurance company poi9nting this out, deny all liability and tell them to jog on.

Original poster

Scootergrrrl · 19/11/2010 12:50

There was definitely teeth, grabbing and growling on my dogs part and I did apologise for his behaviour at the time after a vigorous telling off. I really hate stuff like this

OP posts:

Ephiny · 19/11/2010 12:51

Agree it sounds like a squabble not a fight, and pretty normal behaviour for dogs - one gets a bit too OTT and the other decides he's had enough and tells them off.

If your dog had run up to another and 'savaged' it, then they might have a point. But a bit of a scuffle, no biting, and an injury that might have had nothing to do with the incident? They have no case IMO.

Ephiny · 19/11/2010 12:55

Having said that - I've seen my dog get into a similar scuffle, neither dog was hurt but it did look very aggressive, a lot of growling and grabbing at each other, so I know it's upsetting and horrible to see. But it's maybe not such a big deal for the dogs as it seems to us. If they were properly fighting and meant to hurt each other, they would have.

Original poster

Scootergrrrl · 19/11/2010 13:33

The insurance company is describing it as an attack by my dog and tbh it is hard to remember now exactly what happened. I saw it one way, but the other owner probably saw if differently. As I told DH at the time, I wouldn't have been very impressed if another dog had done that to mine but it was certainly not a sustained concerted attack.
Hopefully the vets report will clear it up one way or another as I really don't want to get into the ins and outs of dog behaviour, or a war of words with the neighbours!

OP posts:

VivaLeBeaver · 19/11/2010 13:58

I guess if you have public liability insurance either through your dog insurance or through the house insurance then leave it up to them to sort out.

I feel sorry for your neighbour as well. She was probably just expecting her dog insurance to pay the vet's bill - not to sue you!

Batteryhuman · 19/11/2010 16:53

Hopefully the insurers will argue it out between them but as I see it they have to prove 2 things.

causation. Was the "fight" the cause of the injury? As it is not a bite this may be difficult to prove.

Are you at fault? Were you negligent in allowing your dog to be off the lead around this dog in this situation. After all it is your liability/negligence that they have to prove, not your dogs. Again I think this would be difficult to prove. The dogs have played together before and you had no reason to suspect that there would be a fight, even if you admit that what happened was a fight. IMO if there is a proper dog fight it involves proper bites.

midori1999 · 19/11/2010 17:33

I agree it doesn't sound like a fight. If dogs intend to harm one another, they will, and that means bites. It doesn't sound to me like you rdog was at fault at all. It sounds liek they were playing, your dog felt the other was being rude and acted accordingly. Had the other dog not backed down, it may have escalated to a fight, but it sounds like both dogs are fairly well socialised with other dogs (both seem to have acted appropriately in the circumstances) and so a fight didn't happen.

It sounds like the injury occurred accidentally, maybe while they were still playing, and was probably largely due to the size difference between the dogs.

I think you need to explain it all to your insurance company and let them deal with it directly with the other owners insurance.

I don't think anyone is at fault here really. Neither of the dogs had a history of aggression or problems with other dogs, they had even played together before. Both were off lead and presumably both owners were happy for them to play together. They are dogs, not robots, they behave like dogs. These things happen.

ArentFanny · 19/11/2010 17:41

Having had 2 dogs both having cruciate ligaments injury I would question this and get some independent vet advice, my first dog snapped his completely when his leg got caught in a fence, our present dog has had both done but his went through wear and tear which built up over a long time. I am not saying that a cruciate ligament can't go accidentally but doesn't sound a rough enough 'fight' for it. Can I also say that our vets bill was £4.5k for both ligaments to be repaired for second dog.

Original poster

Scootergrrrl · 19/11/2010 18:16

A friend of mine has pointed out that the injured dog is a fairly young one, no more than a year, which was being walked to and from school three times a day, a total of about eight miles on roads. Could this have any effect on its ligaments etc?

OP posts:

booyhoo · 19/11/2010 18:40

definitely doesn't sound liek a fight. sounds liek an older dog putting a younegr dog in it's place and not much more than that at all.

not sure about liability though. i don't see how you are any more responsible than the otehr owners.

the dogs had played well before and your dog has no history of dog agression so you had no hint to make you doubt your dog or to make you think he shouldn't have eben off lead. it's likely that if this younger dog is less than a year it isn't as well socialised as yours and maybe crossed an invisible (to humans) line that your dog didn't like.

8 miles does sound a bit much for a young dog. depends exactly how old he is.

silentcatastrophe · 19/11/2010 20:27

One of our dogs had a chunk bitten out of his bum completely unprovoked. I didn't notice at the time, but he needed stitches and it took a while to heal. I didn't ask the owner of the dog to pay, and the owner had the dog put down. The aggression had been caused by a neurological problem and wasn't going to get better.

Your insurance company will sort it out. Send all the stuff to them. I hope it goes well! Look up Trevor Cooper. He's the expert dog lawyer!

Original poster

Scootergrrrl · 19/11/2010 21:09

Thanks for the tip - have looked at Trevor Cooper's website and according to him, we would not be liable because we were not negligent ie doing something we should not have done and because the dog has not behaved that way before and we had no reason to anticipate it. Have bookmarked doglaw.co.uk!

OP posts:

kid · 19/11/2010 22:38

My dog was attacked several years ago and needed 3 operations as a result.
I asked the vet about liability and he told me that as both dogs were off lead, there was nothing we could do. That was 10 years ago, no idea if laws have changed since then or if that was just the vets opinion.

smoggii · 21/11/2010 11:04

"Hopefully the vets report will clear it up one way or another as I really don't want to get into the ins and outs of dog behaviour, or a war of words with the neighbours!"

I'm not sure your neighbour is that bothered by neighbour relations if they are suing you.

I cannot see how you can be liable. Criciate damage can be caused by lots of things. It is natural to apologise if your dog snapped at their dog that doesn't make you legally liable, i can't count the times i've said sorry when people have walked into me, it's a natural reaction.

Your insurance company will fight that ~(if you have one), if not just respond with the reasons why you think you're not liable, force them to take it further, they're not going to win ~(from what you've described) I think they are chancing their arms - cheeky beggars!

PrettyCandles · 21/11/2010 14:14

I highly doubt that the neighbour is suing Scootergirl. I would think that the insurance company is automatically trying to recoup their losses. For all we know the neighbour might be of exactly the same opinion as us, but her opinion is irrelevant to the insurers.

kid · 21/11/2010 20:18

Have you spoken to your neighbour at all?

It must be really awkward but like others have said, it may not be their intention to sue but that of their insurance company.

When do you think you will be able to get a report from the vets and have you contacted your own insurance company yet?

Original poster

Scootergrrrl · 21/11/2010 20:25

DH is contacting our insurers tomorrow. I'm sure its not the neighbours doing it, as the letter came straight from Petplan (badly spelt and punctuated, but don't get me started )

Hopefully they'll take it out of our hands. The other dogs owner went to speak to DH at work (they all work together - it wasn't a special trip!) and I did speak to the other owner briefly when I realised what had happened to the other dog. Will report back tomorrow!

OP posts:

kid · 21/11/2010 20:54

Good luck

yesbutnobut · 21/11/2010 21:24

The other dog owner must have given your details to Petplan. How do you know her dog didn't get into a fight/scuffle with another dog later on? As others have said, she has to prove your dog caused the injury, and it sounds as if this would be impossible. Then they've got to prove you were somehow at fault in allowing your dog off the lead. Very difficult to prove this in law. The owner has perhaps spun an exaggerated story about how your dog 'attacked' hers? On the basis the insurers would pay up anyway (eg if it was an accident) I don't know why she has done this. Feel really sorry for you.

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