Wht's the difference between a good backyard breeder and a 'proper' breeder?

[Slubberdegullion]

I have no intention of breeding from my bitch but I'm genuinely interested in the difference between the two, and what makes a true breeder.

Say you have a pedigree bitch, with good parentage/lines and you want a litter from her. You get some books, chat to the breeder you got your dog from, maybe chat to people in the breed club or on a breed specific forum. Then you do all the health checks and they come back clear or with excellent scores. Then you find a sire with good lines and good scores. You find out everything you can about whelping and care/socialisation of the puppies afterwards. You check out your potential puppy buyers thoroughly and you offer lifetime support for that puppy.

I'm sure I've left out loads, but you get the picture. You've ticked all the boxes. And yet (I think) you'd still be called a byb.

How does a byb become a true breeder, and how can a potential puppy buyer tell the difference?

I would never, ever, ever in a million years buy from abreeder who doesn't show or work their dogs. If they do not, what is the reason they are breeding?

Obviously everyone breeds for selfish reasons, good, reputable breeder or BYB. However, they should be doing so with the good of the breed in mind. Only the best examples of the breed should be bred from, both in terms of health, temprement and looks. Most pet owners initially choose the breeds they like because of how they look and we want them to keep looking that way. If your sdog hasn't been judged by others, how do you know they are a good example of their breed?

Aside from that, someone who shows or works is obviously taking a keen interest in the breed and will get to know other dogs, other breeders and the different lines. Theres a lot of information to be gleaned this way, hereditary problems, temprements of different dogs and lines, what sort of puppies they produce, what their strengths and weaknesses are. You could never find out these things from reading a pedigree.

Yes, everyone does have to start somewhere, but the best breeders actually breed as a 'by product' of their hobby, they don't set out to breed. They also don't breed very often in most cases, except for the bigger kennels, most will only breed once every three years or maybe less often than that.

As for the KC accredited breeders scheme. It makes money for the KC. People can join it without ever having bred a single litter. 'Accolades' such as 'bred over 5 litters' encourage bad practices too. It is a good idea in theory, but in practice is poorly set out and managed. Puppy farmers do belong on it, health testing is not madatory. Although random spot checks are said to be carried out, they are not frequent or stringent enough.

Sadly, the general public see KC registration of dogs as a mark of quality. Even more sadly, it is not. Puppy farmers usually KC register their pups when they are able because it means they can charge more for them. When buying a puppy, KC registration is the absolute bare minimum and a starting point only.

I agree with Midori. If you have a good dog, it is a good idea to share it. Competitions are a way forward. Some people breed because they have a fabulous bitch who is much liked and the owner will have a list of potential puppy owners before the bitch gets pregnant. It's a huge responsibility to allow a bitch to have a litter, and it's important to remember that any pup may be returned to you if the home isn't suitable.

I have taken a while to come back to this thread as I don't want to offend you in any way Slubber as I know you will have put a great deal of thought into your puppy.

However now I have come back I see midori has said all I wanted to say really.

I agree that a good breeder really won't be having more than one litter every few years and also it is very unlikely that thay would have both parents.

Your puppies breeder doesn't have a 'line', a line doesn't exist unless it is proven in something, whether that be working, showing, racing whatever.

I feel so strongly about this, there are far, far, far too many dogs being bred.

I agree that there are far, far too many dogs being bred, the vet and I were having a rant about this too when the hound was in for his injections....

However, I would say that the worst dogs in terms of hereditary faults that I have ever known had show champions, one a parent in both lines, and in one case we're talking section champion at crufts OK, they were a german shepherd and a cavalier and they are notorious but it does make me think as I really would have thought that would have been avoided? That said I did think about a Cavalier when I'd persuaded the DH that the dog was a good idea and would probably have gone either to a friend who was having a litter or to a recommended KC breeder, so maybe I'm not that suspicious. Also both those dogs would be about 20 if they were still with us so maybe things have tightened up with KC regs?

Slubber, yes, strangers in the street have called into question the fact that I don't want unwelcome spawn of the wee man all over wiltshire and have therefore deprived him of his bits. Having just watched him go mad after a scent with great temporary deafness I'm confident I did the right thing - add a sex drive to that and he'd never recall!!

JRsandCoffee

Things have changed massively with respect to health testing.
breeding programmes to eliminate hereditary disease have certainly been championed in recent years - by breed clubs - there have been breed specific databases, genetic research and health testing schemes in which the KC has been helpful, but not the main driver.

there are no comparable schemes for hobby/backyard breeders who are not involved in their breed, or for crossbreeders (as without a pedigree, parentage isn't certified by an external body, and therefore may be totally made up - making genetic screenign for reeding purposes impossible)

most decent breeders that care about the puppies going out will sell them endorsed as the minimum - spay/neuter contract is the safest option (where if bred the dog and puppies revert to being property of the original breeder, and there is also a demand that they be neutered at the appropriate age)

basically, good breeders breed because they have a good reason (furthering working/agility/show lines) and health testing is essential to success in that.

an unhealthy dog can't be shown, or worked, and is hardly going to fly around the agility ring. Nor can a badly behaved dog.

...breeding to compete is breeding for good health and temperament.

OK, ok!! I did say that I thought things had improved vastly on the KC front! I guess I've just known a fairly large number of backyard dogs so find it hard to knock that as well.... but as I say, I do agree that there are far too many backyard dogs being bred and my experiences with the requests to use my own dog to breed have done nothing to make me anything other than wary, and very wary at that.

Sorry, should have said KC/ Breed society front......

Not quite sure what you mean about Health testing schemes Premature.

When I was reading up on getting my puppy all the research I read said that for my breed I should be looking for hip and elbow scores (with the relevant low scores) from both sire and dam and if possible looking back through grandparents scores too (which you can do online via the KC website) for a picture of low scores. 12 monthly clear eye tests also a must plus a clear Optigen test from one of the parents.

Do breed clubs offer different testing?

I'm not sure why a hobby/byb would not be able to access these tests. They cost money, sure, and rely on the owner being honest about the results and not breeding if they are not up to scratch.

Premature and midori I do understand what you are saying, however I'm not sure in terms of supply and demand that what you are advocating is entirely practical.

Why when you read about what you should ask a breeder that you are thinking of buying a puppy from does "Do you show?" not ever come up?

In terms of showing or working I assume only winners (or dogs being placed) are the ones that should be bred from. Any bugger and his brother with a pedigree certifiate can enter their dog in our local county show for example! Show or working champion dogs can sire a lot of puppies. But show or working champion bitches? Is the KC recommendation 3 litters in a lifetime?
If the only puppies produced nation wide conformed to this platinum standard of breeding...mm.. well I'm not sure there would be enough for people who want to own a pedigree dog.

Fear not, I'm not talking myself into breeding (have already had one aborted spaying trip to the vet)! I'm just interested in why good bybs have a bad rep.

there are diseases where the gene-testing isn't adequate - a test of an individual dog only tells you if it is currently affected, not if it is a carrier, or it could even be affected but not exhibiting symptoms.

some breed clubs publish lists of affected dogs, so that breeders can work out the likelihood of their dog being a carrier/affected - basically the amount of knowledge required to judge a good mating is not easy to come by, nor a simple matter of tick-box checks.

i think it would be great if fewer dogs were bred, then there would few unwanted dogs.

I only read up to the tests pertaining to the breed I wanted to buy, I'm sure there are plenty of other genetic tests available for different breeds.

With the Optigen test for GPRA I understood that if one of the parents was tested and came back clear then my puppy would be unaffected (but could still be a carrier).

I'm not sure if you check on the KC website if the optigen tests are available to see. Hip and elbow scores certainly are (can't remember about eyes).

If you are looking purely at health checks then you can access quite a lot of them as a potential buyer, even if you aren't involved in the breed club.

I quite agree that too many dogs are being bred. I'd still like to know about where dogs in rescue are mostly coming from. I'm still not entirely convinced as to why a good hobby breeders are such a bad thing.

Wildy I just want to get back to you about the line thing.

Not sure why I am defending my breeder really (I guess it's because we've become friendly with all the contact we've had before and after getting Elsie).

By your definition a line doesn't exist unless it is proven in something, whether that be working, showing, racing whatever. Why can't a line be proven in terms of market demand? In terms of of a product that is highly desirable? My breeder doesn't show, but she has a waiting list as long as your arm for her puppies. She had people driving from the north of scotland and chartering planes from Jersey to buy from her. She has repeat buyers.
People like the type of dog that she breeds and are willing to wait and pay the rrp for them.

oh and I'm not offended at all!

not really

It's not just about health issues for which there are tests. It is about knowing the dogs as individuals and knowing about other health problems that dogs sired by a certain dog, or dogs from a particular line may be prone to. Epilepsy, for example. No test for that, but some lines are more prone to it than others. Even where hips are concerned, I know of one certain stud dog that has a very good hip score, his parents both have good hip scores, as do their parents, but this dog is prone to siring puppies that end up with poor hip scores. These are only things you will know by being heavily involved in the breed.

As for supply and demand... the number of dogs in this country far exceeds demand. That is why some 25,000 healthy dogs, without behavioural or health problems are destroyed every single year in the UK. Approx. the same number again in Ireland. Lots of buyers aren't prepared to wait for a puppy and because the majority of good breeders have full waiting lists prior to even breeding, this means they are attracted to BYB's and puppy farmers, who are likely to have puppies people can just collect. If people aren't prepared to wait, you have to question how commited they are. Being able to own a dog is a privaledge, not a right and the dogs should come first.

If someone isn't breeding in order to improve the breed, why are they breeding? Money? That's just not ethical IMO, especially when so many dogs are being put to sleep. Then again, for me it is all about the dogs and what is best for them.

What breed do you own, out of interest?

OK that's interesting about the epilepsy and the hip scores thing. I'm being persuaded now . I guess if you want to do everything in your power to produce the healthiest puppies possible then being involved in the breed club is desirable.

I'd still like to know where the 25,000 healthy dogs being pts are coming from. Puppy farms? oopses? Hobby/bybs who don't check out their puppy buyers and don't offer a 'return to me' facility?

I have a black lab midori.

Slubber - my parents bred, showed, worked and still judge English Springer Spaniels for many years.

They did breed from their bitches but when they did it was only for the purpose of breeding their next champion. The spare pups they sold to other well known breeders or people who they interviewed. They always offered to take the pups back with no questions asked if they turned out unsuitable. Typically a bitch will not be bred from more than 2 - 3 times in its life.

The key test is to ask why the pups have been bred and whether the breeder seriously shows or works the dogs. Typically a back yard breeder will breed as many litters as possible from each bitch, and breed many litters per year and does not show or work the dogs. Their aim is only to make money.

By the way 'SCH' on the pedigree certificate means 'Show Champion' which applies only to Gundogs or Border Collies and means the dog has won 3 Challenge Certificates (Best Dog or Best Bitch in its breed) at 3 separate Championship shows under 3 separate judges.

Not sure if breeding for money is such a terrible thing. Why are making money and being ethical mutually exclusive ideals. Money is the biggest motivator in terms of producing quality in terms of pretty much all other things you can buy.

You can buy a dog far too cheaply it seems these days, and I wonder if the ones bought on the cheap are the ones that end up in rescues?

If you are producing excellent quality puppies that involve not only a great deal of time but also cost in order to produce, why not have a large price tag to go with them?

Yes, those 25,000 come from 'accidental' litters, puppy farmers, BYB's, those breeding a one off pet litter from their bitch. A lot of these people have the best intentions. They have no clue that they should be responsible for their puppies once they have left them.

There is undoubtedly a difference between a BYB who is not health testing/asking buyers to sign a return contract/not endorsing their pups pedigree papers and those that do, obviously those that do are doing far better than those who aren't.

However, it's so important to preserve the breeds we love and aim to breed out faults and health problems and I don't believe people who do not show or work are able to do these things as well as they can be done.

Slightly aside, but were you aware that there are two types of eye tests suggested for Labs? Optigen is one, but they should also be tested on the BVA scheme. Elbow scoring is also highly desirable for labs and something more and more breeders are taking up.

That's interesting about the SCH thing. Finally found the pedigree certificate, SCH in the 2nd and 3rd generations back and CH in the grandparents section. Is CH winner in a singular competition then?

Beta no, my question wasn't so much about bybs who churn out loads of litters for the money etc, more the pet owner who does things buy the book but (possibly) for the wrong reasons.

it is possible to lose money as a concerned breeder.

one litter i know -

foreign champion used as stud (£££)
immense food bill £££
mother then 4days overdue..c/s considered but labour commenced..(so a couple of vet consults)
5 puppies....one pays stud fee, one to keep
then litter infected with d&V bug (vet call out at the weekend)
all puppies survived.
spay/neuter contract made it hard to sell puppies

if you were breeding for cash, no need to go abroad to breed. any old stud will do.
you don't consider a c/s as that would cost £1000+ (and certainly not on a sunday!)
you don't keep puppies,
you don't call out the vet at the weekend for nay reason.
you don't bother feeding up your bitch with quality food.
you don't insist on a spay/neuter contract or even endorsement because you want it to be easy to flog your dogs

if you breed to make money, you compromise on ethics.

also, in addition to what Midos=ri says about breed knowledge - you need to know a bit about whelpingto be a decent midwife for your bitch. vets can be very ignorant of whelping issues (one i heard of thought the gestation was 3 weeks ).

producing puppies that people love is easy - even puppy farmers get positively endorsed by theloving owners of their puppies. the market is not a measure of whether a breeder cares about their dogs or not.

Yes the BVA tests, is that the yearly eye exam and inherited disease status certificate?

Finding puppies that had both mum and dad elbow tested was a bit of a hair pulling challenge

Well I think good breeders are missing a trick here

The market absolutely could be a measure of whether the breeder cares about their dogs or not. I walked away from one litter I went to go and see (sired by a super dooper extremely impressive multi award winning with terribly impressive cv on its own website no less) dog because the conditions the bitch and the puppies were being kept in was a disgrace. And I told the breeder as such.
I crossed off going to see any other puppies sired by that dog because I was so incensed that the dog's owner hadn't done any checks on the owner of the bitch she was putting her dog to.

Market forces in action. You're not looking after your bitch and I'm not buying a puppy from you.

How long will it take to remedy many years and generation after generation of incestuous reproduction, condoned by the Kennel Club? Even if the KC has changed its ways, how much trust should we still have in them for having lists of 'good breeders'? Old habits die hard.
(Dives for cover)

Slubber - if it is a Gundog/Collie then Champion means it is not only a Show Champion (ie good looking) but also has undergone a special 'field working test' to show it can actually function as a working dog too. It is quite a rare thing to be a Champion. What breed is your dog?

Good for you waking away from that breeder by the way. In general, I dont think pet onwers should breed from their dogs unless they honestly can say they know where each pup is going and prepared to take them back and rehome them.