Border Collie or Springer Spaniel?

[WoodRose]

Hoping for some views from dog loving mners. We are looking to get another dog and can't decide between a border collie or a springer (yes, we prefer nutters!)

We currently have a 12 year old border collie and lost our other border collie in June, aged 14.5. We subsequently adopted a failed working Springer who collapsed and died suddenly 2 months later. Our male collie is missing a canine companion and I would like to get another young dog before he is too feeble to cope.

I am a SAHM with 2 dog savvy DC (8 & 6). We live in London, but are surrounded by loads of green parkland and woods. DH walks our dog before he goes to work (30 mins off-lead) and I walk him again in the afternoon (1hr -1.5hr). I like to run, so would also take any new dog running with me when it is old enough. We have a well-regarded trainer locally who has experience of border collies. I could attend his weekly class indefinately.

My heart tells me collie (show lines, not worky) but I know how much work they take to train. I got my collies before children, so my life was able to revolve around their training. I am concerned that I would not be able to give them what they need.

We are also thinking about another Springer. We prefer the look of a working Springer (facile, I know!)but wonder whether you can ever trust their recall or are they governed by their nose! Our poor Springer followed me like a shadow in the house, but never really focused on me outside. He was much more interested in following scent under bushes - the pricklier the better!

So, in a nutshell, which is the better family pet - a show type collie or a working springer?

From what you've said (and we've had both) I would go for a Collie. Springers are amazing.. I love them to death, but Collies (esp show ones) would be more appropriate. I have had EXACTLY the same dilemma and in our situation I;d go for Springer. Springers are amazing, but MUCH harder work initially, whereas the Collie (with training) should be pretty constant).

Springers are harder initially. Damn.. I;m changing my mind. I think when they're past the teenage years any kind of spaniel can't be bettered as a family pet.

Sorry...

Thanks Jareth. Was your Springer a show type or a worker?

I think eventually we may have both. As much as I hate to think about it,but my lovely boy isn't going to be with me forever. Hmmm, perhaps get a collie first and then a Springer in a few years time so my collie can help "sort him out". What do you think?

Having had both I feel your dilemma. The border colllies are easy to train always makes me laugh!

You are right they are hard word initially (well for the first few years!) but once they have got it are great.

Spaniels are just delightful and hard working and loads of energy - working lines I reckon have more energy than the collies and there is always that love of the chase!

The only answer I am afraid is to get both! Collie first then the spaniel. If you do it the other way around the spaniel will teach the collie to chase and hunt rabbits too!

Re your post be prepared to up the exercise and training requirements for a young collie but it sounds as if you know what you are in for!

It sounds like you should get both

Our springer was a show type, though he was actually cross springer/field spaniel and as mad as a box of frogs

Agree that getting the Collie first would be a good idea though, otherwise you'll end up with two bouncing nutters

Collie! Everytime. I love collies. A bit meh about spaniels generally - don't know why. I'd always choose a collie or a terrier personally.

Thank you all for your views. I am about 95% certain that we will look for a show type collie. I do love Springers, but am not sure that I can get a reliable recall out of a working one. We live in London, so it is really important that my dogs leave/come on command. Our poor Springer was so keen to hunt that he was completely oblivious to us when we were in the woods and he had to be kept on lead for his own safety.

Minimu - As for upping the exercise, I think it was no accident that I was 2 stone lighter when my collies were younger. Time to invest in new running kit!

We have springers! We love them, but you are right, they are bonkers when out. I would not guarantee ours would recall, they just head off after the scent until they have had enough and return.

Great with children though.

Agree they are fab with children. Our Springer was a dream INSIDE the house - followed me everywhere and very responsive to training. We had lots of different children coming in and out of the house and he was very gentle and tolerant with all of them. However, once we entered the woods or park, he became a completely different dog! Treats, favourite rabbit fur dummy, meh, he didn't want to know - just wanted to head for the nearest thicket of brambles! Hmmm, maybe wait for the house in the country with a secure field before I risk a Springer.

i have to agree, we are lucky to be in the countryside, so it does help.

Oooh, but they are gorgeous

Springers are much harder to train IMHO (says she with the badly behaved springer despite countless training classes and one-on-ones). but they're just lovely.

mine is great with children (less so with other dogs) and follows me everywhere. Once he is and about though he follows his nose. If there is a rabbit to chase, a muddy puddle to lie in, a dead pheasant to waggle, or some deer poo to roll in, then nothing I say will make him come back.

MrsJohnDeere - Our Springer was also a bit iffy with other dogs which was a nightmare in London. Unfortunately for him, there weren't many pheasants running around Highgate Wood but he did have some serious squirrel action, not to mention his attempts to "catch" the young dachshund puppy at his dog training class I must admit that compared to him, our collies are positively sensible

Would you think about a rescue border collie? There have been quite a few on dogsblog.com. Some of them I'm sure would have some training in place already...

I would consider a rescue collie if I could be sure it had show lines and was well socialised. I live in London and am aware of my limitations as a trainer, so it wouldn't be fair on the dog to take it on if it was a "worky" collie.

Both my collies were secondhand, albeit not rescue. We got our female collie at 15 weeks when her owners realised that collies weren't born ready trained. We got our male collie when he was 17 mos old. His owner showed collies, but was forced to give away her dogs when her marriage broke down. I would always opt for a dog needing a home rather than getting a puppy from a breeder, so if anyone knows of a well-socialised collie with show lines, please let me know! In the meantime, I will have a look on dogsblog.

WoodRose, out of interest what would be the difference between a show-line and a working collie? Would a show collie have less of the intensive focus?

I'm not sure which you'd put our old Border collie under. FWIW - and I don't know how your collies have held up in their old age, I'd possibly go for a collie x if I were to have another, just to be more likely to avoid the arthritis/cruciate problems which our old girl has had. Our other dog, who is border x greyhound (so a lurcher) is so much more physically sound at the same age (they're both 14)

Yes, a show collie is less "worky" and intense than a working collie. Its chase and herding instinct doesn't tend to be as strong. Whilst needing lots of mental and physical stimulation (they are collies after all!), show collies don't tend to need as much as the workers.

My collies have held up beautifully in their old age. Our female was diagnosed with a massive benign tumour on her liver when she was 12.5. The vet thought she would live no more than 3 months. She lasted for 2 more years and was happily chasing balls until about 3 weeks before she died. She had no joint problems at all. Our 12 year old male collie has cushings disease which is controlled by medication. Again, no joint or heart problems with him (fingers crossed). Saying that, both dogs originated from very reputable border collie breeders so that may account for their good health

Oh that's good to hear. Ours has a heart murmur too. But she has got blue merle strain in her which apparently makes them more susceptible to either that or the joint probs, I can't remember which.

Gosh, hadn't realised that about the Blue Merles. I will have to file that away.

Am now feeling doubly confused because I have seen a chocolate lab on a rescue site who has come from a loving family home and is in rescue through no fault of his own. I never really considered a lab, but I feel very guilty about getting a puppy from a breeder which I am 99.9% certain I will have to do if I want a collie which definately has show lines.

But if you're just after a show collie because of the less intensive worky focus, you could probably tell whether or not they had that quality from meeting a few rescues? If it's an issue of its health background I can see your point.

TBH, collies are a pretty healthy breed, so the health background is not an issue for me. The workiness is a huge issue for me because once I get a dog it stays with me. I could never give up a dog so it is important that I get it right. I'm not convinced that meeting a few rescues will be enough. Dogs can be quite subdued in kennels. You know who I need to talk me through this - MINIMU - all round border collie expert and fosterer. I'm sure she could point me in the right direction!

The great thing about rescue collies is that you can see the package you are getting! I agree about show lines but some "reject" working collies are just because they do not want to work or herd so I would make my decision once I had met the dog.

I agree that you do not get the true character of all dogs in kennels but try to see some dogs that have been in foster - that way you will see the dog in full flow.

Look at agilitynet resuce pages there are usually many collies there. Do not ever feel pressured into getting any rescue dog though I sometimes feel that guilt kicks in and stops people making a sensible decision and waiting to get the right rescue dog for their family.

We have a mixture of collie and springer...her mum was a working springer and her dad was a collie (or a randy buggar who jumped a fence one night...[hgrin]) so I am just pleased that I have the perfect dog!

Seriously she is the bestest dog ever...soooo good with the kids even though she is getting older. But still a lunatic every time the word walk is mentioned.

I will cry forever when she goes and will get very upset when I cant replace her...

not much help I know, but if pushed then I would say collie i think...

A springer/collie cross?

That does sound like the perfect dog

As luck would have it, I have found a breeder with 2 older dogs that she is looking to home. One of the dogs is only 5mos old. The breeder had kept him to show herself but his mouth "has gone off" and he doesn't have a perfect scissor bite. Whilst this is obviously important in the show ring, does it affect the health of the dog? He had a perfect scissor bite at 8 weeks.

Apart from the imperfect scissor bite, he is said to be good with people and other dogs but occasionally needs to be put in his place. She says "obedience training would be very beneficial" which sounds like he hasn't had much to date! So, too good to be true or a bolshi so and so which she is trying to offload?

My younger dog had a perfect scissor bite at 8 weeks but went overshot - the jaw carries on growing for a while, so sometimes the bite can even out again. Unfortunately, his didn't, and he's got a bit of a gap between his front and bottom teeth. Doesn't stop him eating, though, and definitely hasn't impaired his chewing abilities...

Wildfig - does it cause him any discomfort? Do you have to give his teeth any extra attention?

I'm not fussed about how it looks as he would be a family pet rather than a show dog.