THINKING OF BUYING A PUPPY? WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW, PLEASE READ.

[Vallhala]

Apologies, I posted this on Pets ages ago, then MN decided to give us a seperate Dogs section so I think it needs saying here too.

This is a bit of a soapbox subject for me, so please forgive me if I get carried away!

If you are considering owning a dog, now or in the future, may I suggest that instead of contacting a breeder you contact some rescues?

As well as helping practically in my local rescue I am what they call a "network volunteer". I get tens of calls and emails each day about dogs which are either in pounds or with owners who can no longer keep them and my task is to find those dogs suitable rescue places before they are put to sleep.

As a result of my experiences I have seen not only the heartbreaking side, where I have sat up until the early hours to save a dogs life but also many beautiful, friendly and affectionate dogs moving on to loving family homes and my aim here is to reach out and increase that number.

You may not know this but if a stray is taken to a pound he has just 7 days grace before the pound is permitted to put him to sleep... and so many do. A dog which is surrendered to the pound by an owner can be killed immediately. These poor creatures need all the help they can get - as the saying goes, "why breed and buy while others die?".

This is why I am asking that you consider rescue....

A decent rescue will not just homecheck you but will match your family and circumstances to the right dog and offer lifetime support. You may find your ideal companion in a local, independent rescue or in a national one, you may have a breed in mind and find your friend through websites such as Biggsd or Bullies In Need, you may find the Oldies website has a calm, older family friend. Remember that not all rescue dogs are strays with no history, many have lived in family homes which can no longer keep them and that any reputable rescue will assess a dog thoroughly before placing him with your family so that he is safe with your children, cats or other pets. Such rescues will also neuter and vaccinate your friend before he goes home with you.

We struggle to find rescue on a daily basis and last Christmas was the worst I have ever seen with more dogs in pounds and about to die than ever before. Of course, if dogs in rescues are not re-homed there is no space to save the lives of those languishing in the pounds across the country.

Of all the dogs which I have helped, both pedigree and crossbreeds, Staffies and Greyhounds make up perhaps the greatest number. They are much maligned but Staffs make wonderful, loyal family companions and Greyhounds don't need miles of walks each day, just a couple of half hour ones then they are ready to loll about with their legs in the air and make the most marvellous, gentle and well mannered pets.

I think I have jabbered enough but just in case you are wondering, yes, I do have children, dogs and cats and all my dogs are and have been rescued and I have had dogs since long before my children were born and throughout their lives.

So, if you are considering owning a dog or may do in the future, please, look at those in your local rescue and search the net for rescues across the country, many of whom are willing and able to rehome a dog despite the distance between you and him and please do pm me if you'd like advice in finding a rescue as I have many contacts nationwide, or if you need assistance in any way.

Thank you for reading this.

Excellent post,Val. I'd like to endorse what you said about greyhounds making excellent pets - we have three. I'm currently doing Kennel Club Canine Good Citizen training with our most recent arrival ( a ten year old, who is a delightful old boy) and our tutor has asked me to consider putting him into the Pets as Therapy programme, for which she is an assessor.

For those considering buying a puppy, can I also implore you, if you must go down this route to seriously investigate the breeder you use? I live in Wales, sadly the puppy farming capital of the UK, and there is tremendous cruelty, neglect, greed and misery in this dreadful trade. Sadly, the fact that a breeder has a licence from their local authority does NOT guarantee decent conditions - far from it. Certain local authorities are notorious for their poor licensing standards. Work is going on to try to improve this situation but these puppy farmers are in business because there is a demand. Once the bitches are worn out, they also get thrown on the scrapheap, and often come into rescue.

Things which should act as red flags are:- an offer to hand over the puppy at a motorway services, or mid way point
Only a mobile telephone number for contact
Cheap prices (ask yourself why are they so cheap?)
Pups of more than one breed being on sale
Pups being allowed to leave their mother before eight weeks
Breeder refusing to answer or not understanding questions about breed specific health checks
Refusal to provide paperwork for dogs

To sum up, if you really do want a dog, go to a rescue first (quite a few do have pups too!) but if you are determined to have a puppy, please, please do your homework, and remember that good breeders are expensive for a reason.

It's so lively to read about both options. Rehoming a rescue dog is so rewarding. My parents always got rescue dogs, they also helped my elderly uncle get rescue dogs, he had 3 other the years.

It's also very important to know how to spot a good breeder if you chose to go down that route. If a puppy has had bad experiences, it can have an ever lasting effect on them. Also, you want to know your pup is healthy and to have the support from a good breeder throughout your dogs life.

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We have 3 rescue dogs, and they're fab. Two are from Battersea, one of whom was from the Battersea loony bin, and the 3rd was privately rehomed. I don't think 2nd hand dogs are any more difficult than puppies, and there are a lot of good trainers out there.

vallhala - I've seen a lot of your posts and I love the way you are so passionate about dogs. You have really made me think about this issue.

We're thinking of a dog (well have been for months and months) and I would love to get one from a rescue place - if it was the right dog for us....can you advise how I go about finding a local rescue place? I've looked at the local rspca one and they only seem to have dogs suitable for families with older children (mine are 7 and 4) or large dogs which I can't cope with (never having had a dog I think a small one would be better somehow for us!).

So is there a list of rescue centres anywhere? thanks

Look at the Dogpages.org - they have lots of information. Dog magazines such as Your Dog will have a list at the back. People sell dogs on Gumtree sometimes. We told the Dogs Trust about our children and our dogs, and that our dogs don't especially like children.

It may help you, popmum, to go to some training classes with your children and find out a bit more what suits you and your family. You can find out about local dog training classes through The Association of Pet Dog Trainers. It's a good start. Or buy a dog magazine. You can google the people who contribute as they often have their own businesses.

I don't expect dogs necessarily to like children, and for us, it means that we need clear boundaries so no-one gets upset.

Thank you. :)

There's no one definitive list popmum, but if you'd like to give me an idea of where you live I can certainly see what I can come up with in the way of recommendations. Just county will do, although whether you're to the north/east/south/west of it helps, or your nearest town, if you'd prefer.

The RSPCA and other large organisations tend to be far more inflexible wrt their policies on homing to families with young children. Very often there is far more chance of success with a smaller, independent rescue which will judge families individually.

I will say though that while I can understand your logic wrt having a small dog rather than a large breed, don't discount larger ones altogether. It really does boil down to personality and you may find that there's a larger dog out there which is just right for you.

i would add to what val hs said - make sure you can really give your puppy a good home.

if you are out all day, it is not fair to get a dog

if you won't walk it, it isn't fair to get a dog.

if you have a dog allergy - you need to be very careful to allergy check and be certain you can keep the dog.
Some people just can't be around dogs - sad but it is better than getting hospitalised with a bad reaction and then giving up the dog.

I would love a dog. I grew up with them, mine, my best pal, lived till she was 23. She was a mixed breed, Alsatian, Lab and Collie, glossy black with the tiniest paws!

I'd love my DC's to have the same bond I had with my old girl.

I love rough and tumbling with big dogs, however I think maybe this is not a good behaviour to show my DC's? I did want a puppy so we could train it, (I wanted DC's to feed it? Is that the right way to establish their social "place" if that's the right thing?)
We'd take pup to training classes.

So am I thinking right in getting a puppy so we can all start off together?

Silentcatastrophe, I would never advise anyone, especially a novice owner with children, to take on a dog via Gumtree or similar free ad papers. People LIE!

Only the other day there was a post on here from someone who had taken on a dog from th free ads. Within a couple of days he had bitten her neighbours child and was dead on the vet's table, put to sleep. Adopting through rescue could have avoided all that, by placing an ASSESSED dog with a family to which he had been matched by people, with lifetime support and the guarantee that he would be taken back at any time in his life should the owner be unable or unwilling to keep him.

Verity - Manchester Dogs Home is a pound and not a rescue. They won't give you lifetime support and may or may not take the dog back if you can't keep him in the future - and they MAY KILL HIM. They claim to be a no kill organisation but they are NOT... I have had experience with them as a rescuer and know that this claim is a lie. As far as I recall they neither homecheck nor neuter. If the former is the case I would say that it would be unwise for the novice to adopt from them, as although I hate to limit the dogs chances of finding a home I have to be mindful of the associated risks to owner AND dog of no homecheck and owner assessment being performed.

In a way their dogs need you far more than many rescues will as these dogs risk being killed if homes are not found. If you rescue from them and find you can't keep the dog, for gods sake don't return him there but seek help from a no kill RESCUE, is my best advice.

As far as Greyhounds are concerned, considering how lazy laid back they are, if you have sufficient time, dedication and running space such as being near to the beach I don't think you necessarily need to rule the idea out purely on the size of your house.

I'd suggest you post a thread for Scuttlebutter's attention, she's our resident Greyhound expert and will give you an honest opinion.

Bugger! "Adopting through rescue could have avoided all that, by placing an ASSESSED dog with a family to which he had been matched by people with extensive experience" was what I meant to say!

Thanks Vallhala - we're on the herts/ essex border. We walk/ are outdoors a lot and I work from home so we are around. Am not sure at all about a bigger dog, I always think they need loads and loads of exercising but of course I may be wrong.
I spoke to a breeder recently who sounded great but wouldn't let a puppy go where there was a child aged under 6. Think it was just her personal concern about safety of the dog but it did throw me
It's certainly a big decision..my mates keep laughing at me over how long it is taking to get one but I just want to be sure we're doing the right thing

popmum, the first rescue which springs to mind in that area is Mutts In Distress. Pat, the owner, is a big fan of German Shepherds .... no, no, come back, stay with me... but she has various breeds in her rescue and is a very respected and reputable rescuer. It's worth giving Pat a call or an email as not all of her dogs are on the website. Of those who are, I'd suggest you asked for more about little Wednesday. :)
Mutts In Distress

WRT larger dogs, it really DOES depend on the dog. Age often has a fair bit to do with it too. A greyhound, for example, is not a small dog but contrary to popular misconception they don't require miles and hours of walks each day. A couple of normal walks where they can if possible blast around are the norm, then they'll happily lay with their feet up on your sofa for the rest of the day. They really are couch potatoes!

Another thought, depending on how close you are to London as I don't know how far they venture out, is ProDogs Direct. They have scores of dogs on their lists and Gladys will be only too happy to help if she can. You'll find Gladys here - [email protected] and I'll give you the website link in a moment.

First, I want to show you someone. I know your reservations about large dogs but I have one of these fellas (and his black and tan short haired equivilant). My boy is a long term foster who is going nowhere, and I've owned and fostered identical fellas to this in the past so I am VERY biased but I just HAD to share this boy's information.

Turner, who's made my heart melt

Pro Dogs other dogs in need of homes - and there are loads to choose from, of all breeds - are here: scroll down for dogs in need of homes

Dammit, Turner's now reserved! I knew it wouldn't take long... shame that's not the case for all the unwanted dogs out there.

popmum, wrt a smaller dog - and again, this will depend on exactly where you live in relation to the rescue but I think that as they have volunteers your way to homecheck etc it may be do-able, you might like to look at Macey, here - just click on the very last dog of all the photos you will see.

I've met and handled Macey and can tell you, she is a real little poppet. :)

Fair enough, Valhala. A rescue centre or a reputable breeder is the best way to get a dog. Wherever the dog comes from, it is important, as a potential owner to be able to ask the right questions. At a rescue centre, the people working there will be very good at asking potential owners the right questions, and ensuring that they take the right dog home. A rescue centre will also have spent time evaluating the dogs.

"Can someone explain why Wales in the puppy farming centre of England and what goes on? How big business is it?"

larahusky, I'm trying to figure out how Wales moved into England!!! :o

Why Wales? I'm not sure tbh. Possibly because of the amount of remote land where detection is harder, possibly because of all the literal farms there, where breeding your own sheepdog and selling on/disposing of those you didn't want was (and sadly for some still is) the norm.

Whatever the reason, yes, it is BIG business. Have a look here on the Many Tears website and see how many ex puppy farm adults and pups they alone have at the moment... and remember that these are just the ones they have been able to save, not even just the ones they know about.

Puppy Love website will give you more information but imho the real expert on Welsh puppy farms is Moreen (aka Mo) Davie, a Wales based campaigner and owner of " A Dogs Life", a remarkable lady with all manner of well researched information. There's a bit more on Mo and her work here

Sorry larahusky, you asked what goes on.

We're talking of bitches bred time and again without a rest, as soon as she's had a litter she will be bred six months later, of bitches bred and bred from until they are too old or ill and can barely stand, mothers being bred with sons and fathers with daughters, dogs kept in sheds and never seeing the light of day or a human to fuss them, conditions which cause bitches to turn on their pups and dog against dog, resulting in horrific injuries, dogs bred with no regard to congenital health defects and no subsequent health checks.

We're talking of puppies which are completely unsocialised, scared of their own shadows, reared often in darkness, dogs and puppies with infections and defects, illnesses and injuries which are left untreated, dogs left unkempt and filtjy, with fur so matted it needs shaving off when the dog is rescued, dogs living in and covered in their own shit.

And we're talking of laws which are nowhere near sufficient to identify, monitor and deal with the bastards who do this to sentient beings and a judicial system which doesn't even come close to offering an adequate deterrent.

The puppy farming industry is closed. Vets keep their mouths shut and it's hard to police. It is a vile industry. One of our dogs is from a puppy farm, and is lucky to have survived it, and now live as a normal dog. So many dogs lives are destroyed because their lives are untenable and too miserable to cope with.

Pet shops sometimes sell pups from puppy farms.

Val has done an excellent job of describing puppy farming, and its attendant horrors. It is not solely confined to Wales, but is flourishing here for a number of reasons. Much of West Wales is poor and agricultural and beef, sheep and dairy farming have had a tough time of it over the past twenty years. Many farmers realised that sticking a few breeding bitches out the back in a spare shed is an excellent tax free way of making money. The growth of the internet as a marketing tool and widespread use of mobile phones, along with excellent road based communications via the M4 mean that distance from customer is not a barrier. Add into that the fact that it is difficult to penetrate a Welsh speaking,inward looking culture - remember that nobody has ever been convicted for burning down holiday cottages. Take local authorities responsible for licensing - ensure that local Cllrs have strong links to farming and no interest in stirring up problems. Council officers are generally from the area themselves and will usually/often have relations and friends in farming. It is not uncommon for a farm that is being visited for its inspection to be tipped off, and for conditions to have mysteriously improved in time for the arrival of the inspectors. The law of unintended consequences is that in west and north Wales there is a big effort to get Welsh speaking staff into local Councils and in general a Welsh speaking candidate will be favoured over a non Welsh one. Gwynedd for instance insist that even their street sweepers MUST speak Welsh. This of course is lovely for the language but it creates a very inward looking culture of officers who rarely move between authorities and become hostile to outward/English influences. Then add in a Welsh Assembly Government which is still feeling its way, with Plaid politicans in the coalition who are in the pocket of the farming lobby in west Wales - so they won't do any thing to stir things up - just look at the situation with badgers - a classic case of politics taking precedence over sense.

People who campaign about badgers or pups or other animal welfare issues are either criticised as being English interfering dogooders or softie crachach from Cardiff. There are some very interesting Welsh nationalist blogs for instance that made a huge fuss of the fact that the Badger Trust is based in England and therefore should have no legitimacy in Wales - this type of barking lunacy infects a great deal of Welsh political life but it is not generally discussed. I am fed up with it as I have an English husband, and if I hadn't seen it for myself I wouldn't have believed the awful anti English racism.

My own belief is that puppy farming in Wales will not be cracked until both local authorities and WAG have the will to do so - and that is not currently the case. To get a sense of Council priorities for instance take a look at Carmarthenshire's website - this council has been at the centre of some well documented allegations and media programmes. Nothing on their website even mentions the existence of puppy farming or what they are doing about it. If you look at the website as being the Council's public face, it is clear they refuse to even acknowledge the problem. I have picked on Carmarthenshire but the argument applies to others as well.

Finally and sadly this vile trade will flourish while stupid and selfish people buy pups cheaply.

Bloody hells bells, I didn't realise that the problem was so institutionally condoned Scuttle.

Please may I copy and cross-post your post elsewhere as I think there are a lot out there like me who are ignorant of the politics.

Another reason for the huge number of puppy farms is the grants that the government have given farmers for diversifying, particularly following the foot and mouth outbreak resulting in puppy farming thanks to your taxes.

Val, no problem. Although obviously on here I've gone for a short (!!), broad brush approach - I'd be happy to write you a slightly longer, more detailed appraisal of the situation if you think it would be useful/appropriate. Sicily is not the only culture to have "omerta". Use the mail thing if you want to have a more detailed discussion of your requirements/audience.