Nipping puppy - we are confused!

[assumpta]

Right I have two queries at the moment. One is nipping of hands, the other is the nipping of clothes.

I have read two different things this morning about nipping hands, one says to allow nipping to a certain extinct and then yelp and walk away as this helps develop a soft mouth.

The other says don't allow at all as then it will discourage from ever nipping.

I have spoken to my 2 dds and they each agree with a different one. Which way is right?

Nipping clothes
When she nips clothes, because her teeth get caught on it. I have told the children to put a finger and thumb each side of her mouth to open it and unlatch the fabric, then put her down saying 'no' if she has been on their lap, and getting up quickly, turn and ignore her. Leave it a few seconds and go back to her. Repeat as necessary every time.

Is this the correct way, or please tell me what is? Confusion is turning to frustration with one member of the family, so I want to tell everyone the correct way sooner rather than later.

Please, please advise. Thankyou.

Personally I always use the bite inhibition squealing as it mimics what another puppy in the litter would do if play had got too rough. I feel any type of nipping is inappropriate with humans and should be stopped in a gentle, but firm method as soon as possible.

My pup nips but doesn't stop if we yelp, squeal, scream or any other noise I could think if. Sometimes, his bites are hard, other times they are very gentle. I'd like him to stop biting altogether!

Squeal/yelp, then ignore puppy completely - stop playing, eye contact etc and perhaps put puppy in another room for a few minutes. That way they learn biting = end of the fun. Be very consistent and don't let anyone deviate (men often let pups bite them as it's "cute" - not so cute six months down the line when it's a big dog with adult teeth). They soon learn.

Part of the nipping is teething of course, like human babies - make sure your pup has plenty of legitimate things to chew. Rope toys are good, and gumabones (special rubber bones) are excellent - get them at Pets at Home. Pricey, but pups do love them. Don't give them anything like old shoes or old clothes to chew - they can't distiguish between old ones they're allowed to gnaw, and your new shoes!

Ok, thanks. So to confirm, i stop all nipping whatsoever.

Is it ok for them to lick hands and fingers. When belle does this to my dd, she just says 'kisses' and let's her do it. Is this okay, or should we stop this also?

Belle just came out from under the trampoline with a dead mouse. This has obviously been left there by next doors cats, will it have caused any problem? Glad dh was there to dispose of said mouse, but she went looking for more. None found as yet thank god!

This sounds cruel but doesnt hurt puppy and was taught to me by a dog trainer as its apparently what the bitch does when her pups nip her. Put your hand palm down over the puppys nose and hold puppys head pressed against carpet/floor for a few seconds everytime he nips - if he nips again as soon as you release just repeat until he gives up.
Obviously this has the effect of keeping his jaw closed so he cant nip - the bitch will just stand on a pups nose with a front paw till he stops. Obviously only enough pressure should be applied to hold puppys jaw closed and no more as you dont want to damage his delicate nose. Another one which is imitating the bitches discipline is to prevent a puppy - and therefore later on a full grown dog! - from jumping up is to step back just as he jumps up so that he falls down on his front paws instead of on you. As with above - repeat as neccessary until he gives up. The bitch will keep side -stepping or hop away from a pup that is giving her unwanted attention/trying to feed when she doesnt want to know for whatever reason. So again you are imitating that.

"This sounds cruel but doesnt hurt puppy and was taught to me by a dog trainer as its apparently what the bitch does when her pups nip her. Put your hand palm down over the puppys nose and hold puppys head pressed against carpet/floor for a few seconds everytime he nips - if he nips again as soon as you release just repeat until he gives up."

Bitches DO NOT nip their puppies, not ever. They ignore them if their behaviour is getting out of hand and if the puppy still doesn't get the message they may progress to baring teeth/growling or even snapping but they do not nip their puppies. Nor do bitches pin their puppies down like that, not ever, not in a million years. IMO< it is extremely cruel to do soemthing like that to a puppy, It is a puppy for goodness sake and it is perfectly normal for them to motuh/nip and in fact desirable behaviour as it means you can teach bite inhibition.

OP the following article is an excellent way to deal with puppy biting and it also expalins a bit about it too:

www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=64170.0;wap2

Where did I ever say that the bitch nips the puppy - does it blur your vision being up there on your high horse. And as for it being cruel have you ever watched litter mates play fight - they regularly stand on each other / pin each other down etc etc - and much much rougher stuff than that. They sometimes look like they are tearing each other to bits but its in fact very rare for one to get hurt. I actually made a point of doing this gently - not putting your whole weight behind it etc - the puppy doesnt even yelp. As for nipping being desirable behaviour then lets just encourage it and then when the biting puppy becomes a biting dog we'll have it put down - oh thats much more humane than holding their mouth for a few seconds. And bitches do hold their pups away from them with their paws I have seen mine do it several times - she also does it to the cat when she tries to play with her and she's not in the mood. Extremely cruel ?? - get real ! I can honestly say I have never ever done anything to cause pain to any dog - or any other animal for that matter.

www.loucastle.com/biting.htm

Midori1999 - thank you for your comments. I went on to your link, but I am not sure how this can be any advantage if it only a family member that can tell it to stop. What if, when I leave the room, my dog bites my friend, but when she tells her to stop she doesn't. This is what it says;

"Never start mouthing unless requested. By the time the pup is five months old, it must have a mouth as soft as a 14-year-old working Lab; it should never exert any pressure when mouthing, and the dog should immediately stop mouthing when requested to do so by any family member. Unsolicited mouthing is utterly inappropriate from an older adolescent or an adult dog. It would be absolutely unacceptable for a six-month-old dog to approach a child and commence mouthing her arm, no matter how gentle the mouthing or how friendly and playful the dog?s intentions. This is the sort of situation which gives parents the heebie-jeebies and frightens the living daylights out of the mouthee. At five months of age, at the very latest, the dog should be taught never to touch any person?s body ? not even clothing ? with its jaws unless specifically requested."

I still don't understand the advantages of letting them nip/mouth in the first place?

Our new pup was 6 months old when he came to live with us. For a few weeks I was covered with bruises from being nipped. Teeth kissing....

He rarely nips me now. I have stopped the game and squealed loudly when it happens, and it seems to have done the trick. For some dogs, especially dogs that work with animals, nipping is a very good way of getting the animal to take notice.

Dogs do generally stop nipping it is a developmental behaviour. However it can become a learned behaviour if the behaviour is rewarded ina postive or negative manner.

Two simple ways to stop nipping - it does depend on the dogs temperament as to what works.

1. When the dog nips say oww loudly and stop all interaction

1. When the dog nips stand up and move the dog away to a place on its own. Say nothing to the dog at all.

method 1 works with some dogs but if they are terriers for example the sound of a squeal is exciting to them and will make them more determined to bite (Hate to say this but the squeal does sound like the noise a rabbit or squirrel will make when caught which is why squeaky toys are so popular with dogs)

Method 2 always works but you do have to be consistent and always do it when the dog nips.

Also be very aware of what sets the dog off to nip in the first place, sometimes it is overactivity or boredom or tiredness with the puppy, sometimes it is the time of day - there may be no pattern. If there is then prevention is sometimes easier than stopping an unwanted behaviour. Have a chew toy or rawhide treat ready and distract your puppy if you can.

Letting them nip in the first place is an old school method and can be used for some gundogs but really is unneccesary. The thought was that the dog had to learn how hard they could hold things before it hurt or was wrong.

Meant to say re nipping of clothes if a dog has anything in its mouth that it will not let go of I would not recomment forcing the mouth open.

Just take hold of the collar and hold it to your legs preferably so the dogs head is slightly pointing down and ignore. Do not be harsh do not jerk just hold the dog close. They will always open their mouth and release - it may take some dogs more time than others but it will always happen.

That's useful to know minimu1, I always force my pups mouth open as I have never been advised not to.
What about when he is eating a stone, should I just hold jim and wait for hom to drop it? What if he continues to chew on it while I have his collar!

Midori

I wonder if you could spare me a few minutes reading thread I posted earlier please? I know you might have some experience in the matter. Sorry if I'm asking out of turn, but I have read your posts on MN (and another site I think) and thought you would be a good person to help.

Sorry again for the hijack and sorry again Midori if I've put you on the spot.

Suda the sight you have linked to appears to be advocating/encouraging the use of E-collars to teach a dog basic commands such as sit and down, so forgive me if I think it's a load of tosh...

assumpta the article I linked to is written by Ian Dunbar, who is a very well respected behaviourist and trainer and founded the APDT. I am pretty sure it would be fine for your friend to tell the dog to stop mouthing too. The article explains the benefits to a dog mouthing, eg. it enables you to teach bite inhibition.

*loopyloops, I'll have a look at the other thread now, not sure if I'll be able ot help in any way, but if I can I will, of course!

Thanks for the info and posts. I am going to adopt the train of thought of 'ouch' and putting the puppy down, then returning to play after a few moments, and repeating if necessary, I will also make sure that she has sufficient chew toys.

Never ever pin down or smack etc - it will just cause confusion and the dog could turn into a fear biter. This is a stage they will grow out of if you manage it properly.

Firm 'no' or 'uh uh' noise or a 'squeal' and then move the puppy away from your hands or clothes straight away. Give them some time out to calm down and keep everything chilled out and quiet, gentle voices and soft strokes on the chest or back, to calm rather than playing/exciting.

If they are very hyper or just will not stop mouthing, a squirty water bottle always works for ones that are very nippy/mouthy - such as border collie pups etc, just have a squirty bottle ready in each room to hand as you have to correct the behaviour at teh time of the mouthing - use fresh clean water in a spray bottle, just mist it/squirt it towards them, with a firm 'no' or 'uh uh' noise. They hate the feeling of this and will soon associate just you holding up the bottle with stopping the naughty behaviour.

Also try a rattle bottle - a normal plastic bottle with a few coins or pebbles in - shake loudly once, not too near the puppy's ears, but at arms length will be enough to interupt the behaviour.

Then as they have stopped, direct them to a chewy toy of their own instead, and use calming voice and strokes again. Be consistent and after a week this should work.

water bottles will also wreck recalls and the bond you have with your dog - the dog will very quickly learn to run away from you and dodge you while you squirt the furniture

Rattle bottles either hype up the dog or make then terrified

Not methods that I would use.

I have been doing the ouch, put down, ignore, then return method if needed, but I have also tried pre-emptin' it by giving a chew toy or just calm down time in her crate.

So far, not too bad.

Sorry don't want to disagree with you minimu1, but that is not the case in my experience, and I have trained and worked with many difficult dogs, hyperactive crazy and excited dogs and also dogs with fear based problems too.

Water bottles and rattles are perfect humane training aids, to distract a dog from undesired behaviour such as jumping up and mouthing. They interupt the behaviour in a controlled and calm way, they are a 'one off' result that happens when the dog does that behaviour, and they are not associated by the dog to break bonds or ruin relationships, they are purely a result of that behaviour and the dog associates it with that only and will stop the behaviour as a result of that.

Often the normal routes like squealing 'ouch' will not work with the more persisten pups, it just stimulates them more and makes them think you are playing. Plus removing from the situation or ignoring does not work for most puppies, esp the more excited and crazy ones.

So water bottles and rattles are often the only humane solution that will work, and stop the behaviour, to interupt the behaviour as a 'surprise' to the dog, that the dog will quickly associate with happening after that behaviour only. Quickly followed up with positve calming methods such as strokes, soothing voice and chewy toys.

Water bottles and rattles and have nothing to do with recall and the dog will not associate them with recall as long as you never use them at recall.

Only positive 'lures' such as toys and treats should be used in a recall situation. Recall training is a whole other story with positive rewards and treats etc - not any kind of punishment.

With regards to learning to run away etc - you should be quick and have it to hand, not chase the dog to spray them or shake the rattle bottle at them. It should be an instant thing to hand, follow that for a couple of weeks consistently, then you won't need to do it again.

These methods would never break a bond, they are humane methods that are only associated by the dog to that undesirable behaviuor, not as you punishing them. Dogs need lots of love, kindness and calming environment, plus a bit of humane disipline to be happy and none of these methods will cause them to be unhappy.

I have to say, and I do not have the huge range of experience minimu has, but the mouthiest puppy we have ever had is the lab/staff/collie cross rescue pup we have now. He has a very excitable personality. We got him at 14 weeks and he had obviously been removed from his litter far too soon and his mouthing had been exacerbated by poor socialisation, no contact with other dogs and the owners, who had not known how to deal with it, so had inadvertantly made it worse. I cannot count the times he drew blood in that first week.

Admittedly it took longer than with most to get a consistent result, but we did so with no need for rattle bottles or water sprays. Whatever my problem, I would always find a way round it without resorting to these methods and I certainly wouldn't suggest to someone who I don't know and who's dog I havwen't seen, to use them.

Assumpta, glad you are making some progress.

Each to their own training method merlina but I have had many referral cases sent to me due to problems caused by rattle bottles and water spraying.

I personally prefer all dogs I work with to want to work with me and not to have any fear of unwanted or unpleasant consequences. All dogs that I train professionally and personally "learn" the correct behaviour rather than be fearful of the punishment from the wrong behaviour

I have yet to have a dog that I can not stop nipping etc and not a rattle bottle or water bottle in sight.

I was aware you were not suggesting using a water or rattle bottle for recall but the dog will become uncertain of the owners action and much less likely to recall to an owner who uses these techniques.

Agree 100% with minimu1's last post.

IMO the day I have to resort to using water sprays, rattle bottles or other aversives is the day I decide that I'm not capable of training a dog effectively.

So, laska and minimu1, what would you advise me to do?