I'd love some advice on how to deal with my parents dog, and how he is with my son and niece.

[TonariNoTotoro]

My parents have two dogs. One if s pure border collie and about 8yo, the other is a rescue dog, clearly part border, prob part greyhouse, we're not sure. He's about 10.

Since the kids were born (they are 2.5 and 3) he has got consistently more and more agressive. He's never ever had an opportunity to ever bite the children (we are either there between him and the kids or there is a muzzle on, or both).

I need some advice... is there any way we can train such an old dog to be more placid? He's old, we are NOT going to rehome him (this is not a thread for the dog haters, I'm after real advice).
He's getting worse as he gets older. We hoped as the kids got older (adn taller than him) then he'd stop being agressive.

We can't work out if he's trying to herd them (is doing the sheepdog stance) or whether he thinks they are a threat/lower down in the pack.

Sorry this is such a rambling post.. it's such a difficult situation. He's an old dog and rehoming is not an option. Obviously the kids aren't going anywhere. We are all highly vigilant so there is no chance of biting.

help please.

Have just had a thought. When I was a teen and my dog was about 3yo and a bit aggressive, he started 'worrying' my little sister (3yo)

I bit him on the nose. Once. He never ever did it again...

I'm guessing that;s the wrong way to do things, esp as he's an old dog.

greyhouse??? GreyhouND!

If the agression is getting worse I would go to the vet to rule out any physical reason. It could be fading eyesight causing concern when he sees things moving past him quickly etc. It sounds like you are doing the right things keeping him muzzled and away from the dc.

Another thing to consider is that he has lots of enforced quiet time - it may be that he is just getting over stressed when the DC are around. Collies do need to be reminded to relax and rest.

I would not bite him on the nose!

No, I wouldn't bite him on the nose really :)

I'll suggest the vet to my parents, thank you. I hadn't thought of eyesight thing.

Any suggestions on how the kids should talk to him? They are both 2yo and talking, something they say 'No' to the dog when he snarls at them, but I think that just makes it worse.

The other thing to consider health wise is alzheimers type issues which some older dogs can suffer from which can make them aggressive. Is there a quiet place he can go to when the children are there? Has he ever been crate trained?

I agree with a thorough vet check - not just a once-over but bloods too.

Once you've ruled out any medical reason then personally, I'd get a good behaviourist involved. Your kids are young and vulnerable, and even though they're supervised it's still a risk. If you find a behaviourist who talks about pack theory, rank or dominance, run a mile as those theories have been widely discredited as based on flawed research. You need someone who will observe the dog around the kids and give you techniques to help the dog feel more comfortable around the kids.

Don't be tempted to get the kids to feed him treats etc in the meantime, as although pairing food (good things!) with them being around is good, it could well put him under pressure to interact with them - something you want to avoid for now.

Has he got his own space to retreat to when it all gets a bit much, where the kids can't / know not to disturb him?

ahh.. that makes a lot of sense. He's a very neurotic dog but he used to be very gentle and sweet, but now seems to be aggressive all the time.
If it is an alzheimers type issue, is there medication for it?

No, not crate trained

That's the thing, there's always his own space to retreat to (not a small house). He comes looking for the kids though, seeks them out and snarls at them :(

We do try and keep the kids out of the kitchen as that's where the dogs sleep, and it's their room, so can be territorial about it.

Another question was how to react when he does snarl at or advance on the kids, we've just been putting the muzzle on or shutting him in the kitchen but he hates both.

Agghh this is a nightmare..

I'm a bit unclear from your posts - you originally mentioned two dogs, but keep referring to the dog (singular) being aggressive. Is it a problem withone of the dogs in particular and if so which one? Is the dog concerned then separated from the other dog?

There are two dogs, yes. One of them is amazing, calm, loves playing with the kids and we completely trust her never to as much as nip them, even if provoked (obviously we don't leave them alone though)

It's the older dog, the collie cross that we got from the Blue Cross. He's the agressive one, neurotic, and getting worse.

Can anybody else offer any advice?

thanks

Need to get a pet behaviour specialist to have a look. The kids need to show him that he is below them and the bottom of the pack.

Or it could be that he is worried about his status being changed? Do the kids get a lot of fuss compared to him?

The advice you have had so far is great but even though I'm a dog lover, you have to weigh up the possibilty of the dog one day being alone with the kids (even if only for a few seconds) and the nip he could cause.
Mum's collie bit my nephews, first a little nip, but then needing hospital treatment.
She had to make the tough choice because she had left a visit to the vet too late.
It came down to who she loved more in the end
:(

Could you get him used to a crate? ie, put lots of lovely things in there, rewards, treats, toys, nice blankets, and encourage him at first to spend just a small amount of time in there, increasing as he gets used to it?

My 8 year old sheltie has a crate. We leave the door open most of the time and he goes in there regularly of his own accord. We have a 4 month old puppy and it has been a godsend for him as it's somewhere he can go and relax. If we have young children round, or if the puppy is too manic, we often put our older dog in his crate for a short while. We've always made it very clear that going in the crate is A Good Thing and not in any way a punishment, and always treat him when we put him in there. He loves it as it his his own space where noone else can go. He often refuses to come out until he wants to!

It has saved us a whole lot of "grumpy old man moments" from him!

I don't know if you could get an old dog to accept a crate, but if you could I think it would be an ideal solution for the children and the dog. Do get a vet check, though. Pain or other problems can make dogs irritable (as it would to you or I).

If it's not your dog and doesn't live with you, depending on how often you visit your parents I would be tempted to get the dog checked by the vet and if no physical cause is found, considering the dog's age, deal with the problem by physical seperation, so muzzle and another room, or if you can get him crate trained, shut in his crate in another room with a nice bone when they visit.

It has nothing to do with pack order or him thinking he is 'above' the children though. My friend has a rescue dog who is unreliable round children. He came from a home where he sadly witnessed domestic violence and was attacked on several occasions. My friend couldn't understand for ages why he was 'bad' around children given that he had grown up around them, but it turned out that the children had been present during the beatings and sadly the dog seemed to associate children with being hurt. Horrible situation for all concerned.

He is definitely confused as to his status within the family. I know pack theory has been disputed in studies, but his behaviour first changed when our old old dog died. Collie-cross and is constantly with odds with the younger female collie.

it's definitely about attention, him feeling pushed out. He's a neurotic creature.. the other dog relishes attention from the kids, she's utterly amazing with them (but then she loves anybody who can play ball with her for 3 hours straight )

No way would he accept a crate, well.. I don't think so. Maybe it's worth a go. He's going to be here for another 3-5 years... erk. it's a shame.. I think we need to muzzle all the time and just ride it out to be honest :(

I was hoping for some magic answers (I will definitely suggest vet for full tests and a behavioural specialist to advise)

eagle thank you, I do understand, I really do. In his entire life DS has been left with the dog for approx 2 seconds with nobody else there (accidental, he ran off). Nothing happened, vigilance has been stepped up.

This dog used to be a lovely sappy creature, then the kids came along and mucked it all up for him. He's sad, aggressive and miserable. We are not going to put him down because something might happen. We will be more vigilant and nothing will happen.

its awful, but I find myself kind of hoping that there is something wrong with the dog, so that we can legitimately put him to sleep :(
Poor bugger.

midori - it's very likely that that's the cause of this dogs problems. We know he was beaten, we got him when he was about 3yo.

There is also the issue that he's a sheepdog, a big part of it is trying to herd the kids... We're not even sure if he would bite them, he never has (obviously we can't take the risk)

Tonari, I'd endorse getting him checked out by a vet. It's amazing how grumpy a dog can be if they have something like toothache - have seen this a few times.

As this is your parent's dog, and not yours, presumably you only see the dog when you visit them? Is there scope to change the balance of visits so that your parents visit you more often without the dogs coming along? Also as the dogs are not actually yours, what is your parents' approach? Do they see this as an issue/problem and how much are they willing to do to solve it?

Also, reading your posts, you keep referring to him being old - he's 8 - my friend has a 16 year old lurcher, that's OLD. Coupled with your wish to have him put down, you don't seem very hopeful about this situation. As he's not your dog, I certainly hope he is not put down unless he has a serious health problem. Am more and more puzzled why he and the other dog simply can't be put in a separate room while you are visiting your parents. Along with hosting more visits at yours without the dogs, there are plenty of practical measures that don't need the dog to be killed just yet.

Scuttlebutter - thank you for your comments. I do NOT want this do to be PTS, not at all.

When I said I almost wished he had some health condition that legitimately warranted him being PTS I just meant that that would resolve the situation, I was attempting to emphasis how difficult this is.

Yes, he can be shut away/muzzled, definitely (and he is most of the time). I visit my parents house often because they have a huge hosue and garden, wheras we have a tiny 2 bed terrace with a yard. Not practical for them to come here for various reasons.

He is old, 8 (perhaps 9, we're not sure) is quite old for a dog. We've had dogs all my life and the oldest any have lived to is 13 (16 is exceptional for a dog)

The other dog doesn't need to be separated from the kids, she's amazing with them. She sees them as play mates and jsut loves attention from them. It's the older male cross breed rescue dog that's the problem.

I don't think it's toothache/similar. He's fine when the kids aren't about.