OK, question about the vashta nerada

[fartmeistergeneral]

Well, not specifically them, but that episode of Dr Who.

I just don't get it!!!

Please someone explain to my thick brain the time lines of it all.

If the Doctor hadn't met River Song at that time, how did he know that her life was going to be in danger, and give her a sonic screwdriver (to be given back to himself) in the future?

Do you know what I mean? If at some point in the future, when they are 'together', he gives her this sonic screwdriver because he knows that she/he'll need it in the library. So he must have experienced the whole library thing.

Sigh.

Yes, so he will meet her in the future, remember meeting her in the library (but never tell her), and give her the screwdriver.

Did that make any sense?

So, he did know who she was, but didn't tell her and make her believe that he didn't know? But then does that mean he went through the whole vashta nerada thing twice??

No the doctor in the episode is the doctor who hasn't met her yet - the younger doctor (in his own time line). Somewhere later on he meets her (knowing he met her at the library and that they would be together) they marry and whatever, but he knows that at some point she will cross his timeline at an earlier point in his life at the library. So he has never met her before in that episode, they meet later on, but he will remember meeting her.

Any clearer?

No he didn't know who she was,but she whsipered something to him that only he could have told her (in the future) so therefore he had to accept that he will meet her later.
Then when he does he sets up the screwdriver business.

Got info from my DS Doctor Who book

When the Dr first meets River Song she has sent him a message via psychic paper about the library. All the stuff happens there and she sacrifices herself. He then goes to meet her before the library stuff happens and they spend time together before he gives her his sonic screwdriver because he knows she'll need it but can't tell her why because of th spoilers! Hope this makes sense!!

Timelines:-

Doctor * River Song

Goes to library** Meets doctor
Meets River Song Marries doctor
Time passes Is given screwdriver
Meets River Song again ** Crosses dr's earlier timeline
Marries her ** Meets younger doctor
Gives her screwdriver

(Oh and I think I assumed the marriage thing. I believe she told him his real name, something he has never told anybody, which is why he knows he must trust her completely in his future)

I just don't get how he knows that he life is going to be in danger and in need of the screwdriver unless he has actually witnessed it himself? And by witnessing it the first time - she will die.

sirius, I understand your Dr Who book version, but don't remember references to her having psychic paper etc.

I'm sorry, how frustrating for you all to understand it so perfectly!!! Am a dolt!

Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.

It's all you need to know.

HER life

By the way, I get River Song's timeline as made clear by youknow....

It's the Dr's that's puzzling me.

The psychic paper bit was right at the start of the episode. He met her for the first time in the library. And then went back in time and met her again before the library. So knew that she was going to die and would need the screwdriver.

Where's KayHarker when you need her?

He has witnessed it himself.

His younger self watches her die and he remembers it all (so when he's older he knows that this is when she will die). Being the doctor he would never be able to interfere with timelines that have already occurred, so he knows she will die but cannot stop it (just like he couldn't let Rose stop her dad from dying).

Unquietdad is right, wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff.

The issue is that the Doctor and River meet each other several times but as the Doctor travels in time the "several times" happen in a different order for each of them. Stuff that is in River's past hasn't happened to the Doctor yet.

FROM THE DOCTOR'S POINT OF VIEW:

Doctor now: meets River Song. Doesn't know who she is but she knows who he is. Wonders why future Doctor gave her the sonic screwdriver. Thinks "Aha!". Downloads her.

Doctor in the future: meets River Song again. She doesn't know who he is but he knows who she is. Meets her lots more times and they get to know each other very well [suggestive wiggle of eyebrows]. When he knows that the next thing she's going to do is going to be visiting the Library, meeting the younger version of him, and dying, he gives her his sonic screwdriver knowing (probably remembering, but it's all timey-wimey) that the earlier version of himself will be able to work out what to do.

FROM RIVER'S POINT OF VIEW:

River in the past: meets Doctor. She doesn't know who he is but he knows who she is. Meets him lots more times and they get to know each other very well [suggestive wiggle of eyebrows]. The last time she sees him he looks a bit sad and gives her his sonic screwdriver.

River now: goes to Library and meets Doctor. He doesn't know who she is but she knows who he is. Dies. Is downloaded.

He doesn't really stop her dying as such, but sends her soul/essence/mind to computerland to live in virtual reality. Isn't that it?

Portand Lemon - very clear.

Marriage is def an assumption!

What gets me, right, is that she says "You look so young, much younger than I've ever seen you"

Which implies that a) it is this incarnation of the Doctor that she's met before.

and b) that she has met him when he looked older.

So how are they going to fit that in with 26yr old Matt Smith starting in 2010, hmmm?

I Want To Know.

I always saw that as she could see past "what he looks like" - isn't she looking at his eyes when she says that, rather than his face?

She says something about his eyes looking young, though, doesn't she? Which covers her for being able to recognise him across any regeneration because they have this mystic soulmate bond thingy.

And it's a little-known fact that once Matt Smith has finished they're going to cast Clive Dunn, and he's going to be the Doctor who gets all hot and steamy with River Song...

More prosaically, there's always the option that the River Song subplot all takes place offscreen (in the manner of the books, which fit in between televised episodes). So it could all happen to David Tennant's Doctor in bits between the end of Season 4 and his regeneration. But I favour the mystic soulmate bond thingy.

Offscreen, pah.

Though it would nicely cover the problem of whatshername, you know, Corday, hang on, googling.. Alex Kingston not getting younger..

I get it!!! I actually get it!!! Thank you thank you thank you all!!!

goes off and lives life happily

Don't even get me started on Donnie Darko wormhole thing!

I love Donnie, but my head hurts now. Sorry for all my unclear explanantions.