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Telly addicts

what was Jamie's last meal and did the kids eat it?

51 replies

jasper · 02/03/2005 22:03

I missed the last five minutes.
What a great programme.

OP posts:
crunchie · 04/03/2005 11:10

This programme is so good, I know I must make a bit more effort with my kids, but DD1 will eat fruit and veg happily, DD2 will not. I tried to be sneaky this morning and hid grated apple in her porridge. HUH she sussed it She ate a few spoonfuls, noticed some apple and refuse point blank to eat any more. I got about 3 more spoons down her with teh promise of a TREAT in her lunchbox. I am going to try mashed banana next.

With pasta sauce sometimes she'll eat it, sometimes she only eats plain pasta with cheese!!

Oh well I'll keep trying.

snafu · 04/03/2005 11:22

Hunker, don't think it's controversial at all. It was the first things I thought too, especially after what the mother was saying about the house being calmer once they'd junked the junk. There must be a connection to food and behaviour for at least some of the children.

HunkerMunker · 04/03/2005 11:26

I thought it was really interesting that she described the children as more loving when they were eating decent food too. It cannot be coincidence that there are so many problems from manners to criminal activity (can't think of a better way to put that!) and so many people are eating total crap most of the time.

(I will just qualify that by saying that since I had the dreaded bug a fortnight ago, I've not fancied anything remotely junk-like - I now eat pretty much unprocessed food and I've lost about a stone and feel amazing - full of energy, skin's better, hair's better, my temper's better - I didn't have an appalling diet before (no turkey twizzlers for this Hunker!), but it wasn't as good as it could have been).

snafu · 04/03/2005 11:32

This is something I'm becoming really interested in. Slightly off-topic, but my mum has severe depression and an appalling diet. Now, obviously I'm not so naive to believe that a diet consisting almost solely of bacon sandwiches, tea, crunchy nut cornflakes and cigarettes has caused the depression but I know it's definitely not helping her either. I am trying to get my whole family on a healthier diet - more fresh veg, more fruit, more oily fish etc because I'm really starting to believe in a strong link between diet and behaviour/mental health.

Waswondering · 04/03/2005 11:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HunkerMunker · 04/03/2005 11:41

There can't NOT be a link IMO. There are so many chemicals and things we were never intended by nature to eat in so much processed food these days - they must be having an effect on people's mental as well as their physical health. It's just common sense!

I think that once you start eating better, you actually don't want the junk. Before I had that horrible bug, I had been eating rubbish and feeling awful. I was short-tempered, I was overweight, I was unhappy about it, but didn't see a way forward. The bug was the best thing that could've happened to me! I didn't eat a thing for two days, got rid of everything in my system (to put it politely!), and then when I wanted to eat again, I didn't want sweet grease (chocolate) or fatty stodge - I wanted vegetable soups, fruit, salad - I wanted to taste what I was eating, not just shovel it in and crave the next thing.

So now I eat what I fancy, when I fancy it. I don't eat for the sake of it - and it's made a huge difference!

HunkerMunker · 04/03/2005 11:43

Waswondering, yes, the boy with the salad - made me he'd never had it before!

pixel · 04/03/2005 14:11

Oh dear, I'm finding all this very frustrating. Of course I agree that this is so important, JO is doing something that should have been done long ago, kids should be given healthy food, taught to cook etc. Trouble is, it's making me feel even more guilty than I do already about my ds's diet. He has asd and eats a lot more 'junk' food than I would like (NEVER a turkey twizzler though, or Macdonalds burgers!)but he has so many issues now with food that I am just grateful if he eats anything. I constantly try different ways to disguise veggies etc in his food but he always spots it and rejects the whole meal. For example I have tried making my own fishcakes with fresh ingredients (not interested) have painstakingly hidden peas inside his chicken nuggets (ate the nuggets, left every single pea on the plate)and tried mashing carrots/swede etc into potato (took one mouthful, spat it out and hasn't eaten mashed potato since). He hasn't the understanding to be open to persuasion or bribery and I certainly can't force him. Last night I tried to get him to taste something on a spoon and he threw himself backwards on to the hard kitchen floor.

My dd eats a good variety of vegetables,pasta etc and is open to trying new things so I've no worries there, but I'm starting to think that if JO is successful, I will have to buy smiley faces for ds under cover of darkness to avoid the shame!

snafu · 04/03/2005 14:16

Oh, pixel, I don't think you should feel bad about this The problem is parents and schools who won't even offer good food to their children, not those mothers (i.e. all of us at some time or another!) who want our kids to eat well and yet find our healthy offerings refused, spat out, etc.

I don't think you can compare your obvious efforts with your ds to those who serve their kids crap food simply because they can't be bothered to do any different. Please don't feel guilty because of this thread!

pixel · 04/03/2005 14:16

Stop press! last night ds ate half a Danepak 'Vegetable Grill'. Still junkfood by JO standards, but a triumph for me!

pixel · 04/03/2005 14:16

Stop press! last night ds ate half a Danepak 'Vegetable Grill'. Still junkfood by JO standards, but a triumph for me!

crunchie · 04/03/2005 14:16

pixel I can see your point, but there are always exceptions. It's not like you have never tried to give them fresh fruit and veg. The mother who said - Basil leaves, you can't just give them leaves for dinner!!

pixel · 04/03/2005 14:22

Thanks, it's just the fact that I agree with all the stuff about behaviour and concentration (obviously big concerns with ds) that makes it all the more frustrating.

tallulah · 05/03/2005 11:55

Oh I wish I hadn't read this thread because there is steam coming out of my ears!!

What were they saying on the bottlefeeding thread? something about bf mothers being smug? How smug do you lot sound?! (all these mothers that don't feed their child properly like I do)

My 15yo has been on ritalin for ADHD since he was 7. He is the middle one of 4 kids & the other 3 are not on ritalin, nor do they have behavioural problems. They all eat the same food. My 15 yo will eat just about anything given him- his favourite food as a toddler was broccoli. We are vegetarian & eat a great deal of fresh fruit & veg, as well as the chocolate etc everyone else eats. There is no noticeable difference in my son's behaviour if I try to cut out "unhealthy" food. I did start off with my first child trying not to give her sweets or junk, & was soon undermined by family, friends & society in general (sweets at Toddler group, "treats" at playgroup) that I had to give up. (I was being "cruel" to "deprive" her of "nice things") Now people with no experience of SEN kids yet again spouting off about diet, which I believe has actually been disproven in a number of controlled tests.

Yes kids on a really poor diet will misbehave, but please no more sweeping generalisations about children with genuine disabilities thank you.

pixel · 05/03/2005 16:44

Tallulah, I know what you mean about being undermined. On the one hand I'm being quizzed by medical types about what ds eats (he has a bowel condition)and being put under pressure to make sure he has the 'correct' diet, and on the other his school's idea of a treat is a trip to Macdonalds!

I think people can't help but link diet to behaviour when we are constantly bombarded with this information by experts and the media. One example that springs to mind is Dr Robert Winston telling everyone that they should be giving their kids EyeQ to help their concentration etc. It even says on the bottle 'as seen on TV'. It does seem odd to me that at the same time as children with ADHD have been recognised as having a genuine disability (as opposed to just being 'naughty'), there is this perception that they can all be cured if they only cut out E numbers.

Still wish my son was like yours though, and would eat all the 'good' stuff, then I wouldn't have to constantly feel as if I could be doing more to help him.

Willow2 · 05/03/2005 17:08

Tallulah, I can understand that what might have come across as a sweeping statement pissed you off - but I'm sure it wasn't intended as such. I don't think anyone was trying to say that kids with adhd will be sorted out if we just give them proper food - more that in some cases it would be worth addressing a child's diet (if it is high in junk food) before medicating. I don't doubt for a second that there is a valid link between diet and behaviour/concentration - some kids definitely do react badly to certain foods. I've seen it happen to a friend's kid that I unwittingly gave a packet of Quavers or something similar to. His mum said "This'll be interesting" and she was right. Within ten minutes he was literally bouncing off the walls. Now imagine an entire class doing that half an hour after lunch...

Anyway, Jamie is my new hero. Always thought he was a bit of a prat up until now... but last night ds and I cooked his tea together from scratch. He didn't eat everything but he did try stuff and we had fun.

Cod · 05/03/2005 17:12

Message withdrawn

happymerryberries · 05/03/2005 17:16

Tallula, I have taught kids like your son who have ADHD who are unaffected by changes in diet. I have also taught others who are bouncing off the walls after lunch because they have drunk additive ridden Panda pops. I also find that lots of non-statemented NT kids react badly to their poor diet, with sugar rushes at one moment and lacking energy the next.

You would have to be a foolish person to put all childhood probelms down to diet, for many kids this is not an issue. But for many others diet can be key

Improving kids diets can only be a good thing, not an easy thing to do (and my ds is a terror with food), but worth it in the long run, don't you think?

iota · 05/03/2005 17:19

years ago my SIL and db noticed that their ds2 reacted to sodium benzoate (sp?) (he went a bit hyper), which is found in many squash type drinks.

aloha · 05/03/2005 17:23

Found this on the BBC website:
Of course, you can't put everything down to diet, and I can imagine it is extremely frustrating when you think that people are blaming you for your child's problems. But I did think that there was quite a lot of evidence that diet does influence behaviour in many people (adults as well as children), as well as health.
Diet and Behaviour

The recent study on the correlation between diet and behaviour in one set of identical twins, showing a dramatic increase in IQ test results and decrease in discipline problems in the twin on an additive-free diet, is only the latest in a series of similar studies. Dr Bernard Gesch, a research scientist in physiology, carried out a Home Office-backed study on inmates at a maximum security facility in Aylesbury which had dramatic results: among those inmates on a regime of dietary supplements, serious disciplinary offences (including acts of violence) dropped by 37% - once the study was concluded and the prisoners returned to their usual diets, the prison staff reported a rise in violence against them of 40%.

During his presentation to the Associate Parliamentary Food And Health Forum (FHF) regarding the Aylesbury experiment, Dr Gesch outlined nine previous studies by a number of researchers on both sides of the Atlantic drawing strong relationships between diet and behaviour in prison or school situations dating from between 1976 and 2003 - not one of which was funded for follow-up. He also points out that the diet of the general population has changed dramatically over the past few decades from fresh whole foods to highly refined and processed packaged foods - it is also worth noting that our intake of animal products is drastically higher than it was before WWII, and at the same time livestock has become more exposed to chemicals (herbicides, pesticides, antibiotics, etc.) than ever before, leading to unprecedented levels of pollution of groundwater in both Britain and America; at the same time, levels of physical activity have dropped alarmingly. Dr Gesch lists in his presentation the many deficiencies in trace elements detected in the offenders at Aylesbury.

Dr Joseph Hibbeln5 followed Dr Gesch's presentation by pointing out that the change in diet has resulted in dramatic changes in the ratio of Omega fatty acids consumed by Americans, and that the intake of these essential fatty acids is crucial to the formation of the brain. In other words, the formation of every system and function of the body is affected by diet, and the average western diet is not only lower in nutritional value than it was a few decades ago, but even the healthiest diet is lower in nutrients due to the rapid deterioration of topsoil in the age of industrial farming. Dr Hibbeln referenced five major studies on links between food and behaviour, and added that Dr Gesch's conclusions were in line with cross-cultural epidemiological6 and long-term studies on links between diet and behaviour, and with the known 'neurochemical mechanism(s) related to violence and impulsive behaviours'.

To make matters worse, heavy drug use can have an adverse impact on the absorption and retention of nutrients, and many prisoners either have drug problems on entering the prison system or acquire one once inside. Further, Dr Gesch's Aylesbury study points to poor dietary choices made by prisoners, which perhaps points to a general lack of awareness about nutrition among prisoners (disproportionately drawn from poorer sections of society due to a number of factors), and may indicate that the general public is not as well educated on diet as is usually assumed. The influence of food advertising, especially during childhood (the crucial period for the physiological impact of nutrients), may well play a significant role in the dietary choices made both by prisoners and the general public.

As seen in the FHF presentation, Gesch and Hibbeln are not alone in their conclusions. The nine studies Dr Gesch cited and the five specific studies cited by Dr Hibbeln are only part of the growing body of evidence since the 1970s that strongly supports a link between diet and behaviour. In 1997, The Sunday Times referenced several studies on the correlation between low levels of zinc and anti-social behaviour and ADHD. Similarly, links between fatty acids, dyslexia, and behavioural problems such as ADHD were found by researchers from Oxford University and London's Imperial College School of Medicine during a study on children with dyslexia and behavioural problems in Northern Ireland. Prof. Ian Town of Christchurch School of Medicine and Health Sciences in NZ is currently conducting a long-term study of the role of iron deficiency in behaviour, and, as a result of a study on the link between diet and behaviour in schoolchildren by Dr Charles Pollak7, the Scottish Executive is rethinking its policy on school lunches. Initial research into the effects of diet on aging show that a poor diet in early life leads to an inability to use anti-oxidants, and so to early aging and death in animals; further research will be undertaken to determine whether the same holds true in humans.

Obviously, diet is not the sole cause of anti-social or criminal behaviour - there are many factors involved. But it does seem clear that behaviour, mental health, and the development of cognitive functions and impulse control are directly and drastically modified by diet.

Given the FSA's own survey of the bioavailable nutrients in food compared with 70 years ago, the increased reliance on processed and refined foods, the dramatic fall in consumption of Omega fatty acids, and the available studies on diet and behaviour, it would be wise for those in the affluent global north to take serious stock of dietary trends and habits - and their consequences.

Related BBCi Links

aloha · 05/03/2005 17:23

Oops - I didn't realise that was so long! I must learn to do links

iota · 05/03/2005 17:32

interesting article aloha, but depressing.

happymerryberries · 05/03/2005 17:38

Aloha are you turning into ASTU?

tallulah · 06/03/2005 10:46

Yes, improving children's diets would help, but Hunkermunkers actual post said

"Is it controversial of me to wonder whether there are so many children on ritalin, etc because they actually eat crap and if their diets were sorted out, a lot of them wouldn't need the drug?"

That is what would me up.

Do people honestly still believe that you take your naughty child along to the GP & say "we want ritalin" & come away clutching a prescription? Do they not understand the in-depth interviews & the hoops you jump through before you even get a dx let alone get given anything? We've had counselling, behavioural therapy, psychological evaluations, at- length discussions about diet, exercise, you name it. That was long before the first prescription was ever handed over (& he started off on ADS). I would like to think that is the experience of every family in our situation. Medication is the last step, not the first one.

I was shocked by the statement that the school dinner budget is 37p per child, when the parents are paying £1.75. Surely this is what the government should be tackling? It shouldn't be private companies in charge of school catering, and the staff costs should come out of central govt funding, not the schools budget. Then the whole of the cost of the meal should be spent on the food.

My grandma was a school dinner cook back in the 60s. She made all the meals from scratch in the school kitchen & all were nutritionally balanced. The children didn't have the choice available now, and TBH I don't think they need it at primary level. I had school dinners at primary & it was basically this is todays dinner, now eat it. (I think there were usually 2 puddings). I went from being a very faddy eater at home to eating whatever I was given at school. Why did it change?

WideWebWitch · 06/03/2005 10:51

I've posted on the other thread too, it was fab wasn't it, JO is my hero too, I just think he's doing such a good thing here.

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