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Telly addicts

Marilyn Manson: Unmasked

35 replies

cheezncrackers · 18/01/2025 13:56

Has anyone watched this? I watched 'Phoenix Rising' a couple of years ago (the documentary that Evan Rachel Wood did to explain the abusive relationship she was in with MM), and this expands on that, looking at the bigger picture of Manson's career, his stage persona, what he's said and done over the years, etc. It interviews fans, former employees, ERW, his lawyer, the director of the video in which ERW says MM raped her, journalists who interviewed him and wrote about him, one of his band members, and old school friend.

And by the end you have the allegations that he did all these awful things (rape, sexual abuse, bondage, manipulation, control and more), and his reply to it all, apart from the rape, which he denies, seems to be 'So what? I was always explicit about what I was into, and as far as I was concerned I was in consenting, adult relationships with these people. They didn't complain at the time and just because they've now had second thoughts about what they did with me doesn't mean I did anything wrong'.

It's interesting that Dita von Teese (who he was married to, but then cheated on and left for ERW), is one person who hasn't accused him, in fact I think I recall that she said he didn't abuse her. Maybe she was the only one who went into a relationship with him with her eyes wide open and knew exactly who he was and what being in a relationship with him would mean? At one point in the documentary there is audio of MM, in an interview, saying something like 'I say all these terrible things, so why aren't people worried that I'm doing them?'

FWIW, I am no fan of his, I couldn't hum you a single song of his, I always thought he looked absolutely horrible! But his lawyer said that MM would welcome going to court, because he could easily win against the allegations made against him. As it is, no court case has been forthcoming and he's basically been cancelled, which is great IMO. Vile, abusive man, but one who was (IMO) hiding in plain sight the whole time. But why did so many people not believe that he was exactly what he said he was? It's just bizarre to me that so many people just thought he was trying to be provocative and 'a rock star' and didn't see that he was a misogynistic abuser who was explicit about that fact.

OP posts:
Jabtastic · 18/01/2025 14:08

I found it really interesting and sad because he does seem to have been in plain sight. I think people put it down to performance when he was showing exactly who he was.

KnoblesseOblige · 18/01/2025 14:21

The thing is, there are a LOT of people who are ok with kinks and weird relationships and all that. He could very easily find people to play along, with full consent. But that's presumably too easy and boring for him..

I think the issue comes when he has plainly said that he would rather break down a woman so she has no other option but to say yes to his demands .. That is coercive sexual and psychological abuse. The challenge, the overriding of boundaries is what he's clearly said he wants and enjoys. It's abuse plain and simple.

I don't think he's ever hidden his nature though. I also think that people can be ok on a surface level with what's happening in a relationship at the time, but then years later feel the absolute opposite and realise they were abused, maybe after therapy or improving their mental health, self esteem and support circle. This is valid too, ERW probably did know exactly what he was at the time, but wasn't equipped to challenge him until later. There should be no time limit on examining a crime.

It's such a shame though, he isn't blatantly unintelligent, he had a counter culture platform where he could have encouraged free thinking and questioning abuse within organised religion, politics etc seeing as he riled those groups up so much.. Instead its the same old grubby selfish obsession with his own dick and his own wants, and fuck everybody else's boundaries. Just like all the people he judges and hates in his music. Just another ten a penny abuser, a wolf in wolf's clothing, who is also (ironically) a sheep in this regard.

Ted27 · 18/01/2025 14:26

I've watched both.
If a remember correctly all the people who defended or made excuses for him were men. The band member looked drunk or on drugs to me.
ERW was very young when she met him, and being new to the to the film industry was vulnerable. He clearly targeted her.
The very nature of coercive control means once you are sucked in, it's incredibly difficult to get out. It's a long time since I've seen ERWs programme - again if I remember correctly that although her parents were very supportive, weren't there some serious issues in their marriage so maybe her perceptions of normality were skewed.
The lady who was a fan was interesting, when she was looking back at her photos and talking about why she just didn't see it for what it was.

There was a lot of debate about whether the sex was simulated or real. But also remember Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie, I'm sure there are other examples.
But regardless if whether it was real or not, the video shoot seems to have gone a lot further than ERW was told, and she was drugged.
Most of the other women were dependent on him in some way for their careers, at one point I'm sure he was powerful enough to destroy their careers.
I have a friend whose vulnerable daughter has been in a coercive control relationship. This person has raped her, she has had multiple suicide attempts and is generally in a bad way. I think he is a very dangerous young man.9 Ive had countless conversations with my friend but she still really struggles not to blame her daughter, to see that she is being controlled, that she is not to blame.
I don't get it, it's blindingly obvious to me. I suppose everyone around these people gets sucked in to some extent.

PandoraSox · 18/01/2025 14:29

I think it is telling that he dropped the defamation case against ERW. He also settled out of court with Esme Bianco.

BobbyBiscuits · 18/01/2025 14:36

I never really thought about it at the time, but his whole persona and band was strictly aimed at teenage girls. He made a point of laughing about how he was shagging all these 14 year old groupies. Like, his entire raison detre was saying he was a child abuser.

I remember his first album that I heard was called 'smells like children'.
I literally thought it was all a joke at the time.
I only ever saw him perform at a festival so the crowd was mixed and they weren't all his hardcore fans, iykwim.

But watching the first part of that doc was just sick really. The whole thing was a set up for grooming.

cheezncrackers · 18/01/2025 14:44

PandoraSox · 18/01/2025 14:29

I think it is telling that he dropped the defamation case against ERW. He also settled out of court with Esme Bianco.

Edited

Yeah, that's interesting isn't it? Particularly in light of his lawyer saying he would welcome the chance to go to court. So maybe he really wouldn't like to go to court after all? I guess he'd love to 'do a Johnny Depp' though and clear his name while subjecting his accusers to further abuse. Urgh! It's always the same story isn't it? Horrible, abusive men and their numerous apologists.

OP posts:
Exhaustedtiredneedabreak · 18/01/2025 14:51

Was it him that courtney love refused to tour with ? I seem to remember she was sued for pullin out of a tour because the other band were abusing her teenage female fans. I can't remember who it was but she was the first one to call out Harvey weinstein so I'm inclined to believe her judgement in sleazy men.

PandoraSox · 18/01/2025 14:51

His lawyer was horrible. I know he was doing his job, but he dripped with contempt for the women concerned.

MilitantFawcett · 18/01/2025 16:20

Some wise mumsnetter said something on another thread that all the focus on “consent” nowadays makes it harder to spot coercive behaviour. That really struck me watching this documentary. His lawyer kept banging on about how the relationships were consensual, without any understanding that consensual can still be abusive. It really looked like those women consented to things because the alternative would be worse.

MilitantFawcett · 18/01/2025 16:22

Actually it didn’t just look like that, he said it himself on the audio tapes of the Rolling Stone interview

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2025 16:47

Where is this documentary available?

MollyRover · 18/01/2025 16:49

@Ted27 I do struggle a bit to understand sometimes. I feel like it's more a case of the perception that a potential career may be withheld without there being any guarantee either way, and thankfully there are more safeguards these days than previously. Not enough, but more, and hopefully we are moving in the right direction. But it's often the case that we regret things in hindsight.

Marilyn Manson was the zeitgeist for my generation. It was honestly an awful time, ladettes lauded when it was just an excuse to get us on board with being referred to as slts and bthces and degrade ourselves in order to be seen as cool girls. MM has always been repulsive in a very overt way and his relationship with ERW came even later than that time I think. I want to believe her but I can't help thinking that she was not as naive as she claims. I liken it to the situation between Mandy Moore and Ryan Adams. She wanted a different reputation, she had a thing with Jack Osborn too. It wasn't completely random.

I feel wretched for how I'm thinking about this, honestly, probably conditioned by society at the time but I'd like to evolve!

Plastictrees · 18/01/2025 16:51

MilitantFawcett · 18/01/2025 16:20

Some wise mumsnetter said something on another thread that all the focus on “consent” nowadays makes it harder to spot coercive behaviour. That really struck me watching this documentary. His lawyer kept banging on about how the relationships were consensual, without any understanding that consensual can still be abusive. It really looked like those women consented to things because the alternative would be worse.

I don’t think that people understand that consent under coercion is not consent.

PandoraSox · 18/01/2025 18:20

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2025 16:47

Where is this documentary available?

Channel 4.

PandoraSox · 18/01/2025 18:32

MollyRover · 18/01/2025 16:49

@Ted27 I do struggle a bit to understand sometimes. I feel like it's more a case of the perception that a potential career may be withheld without there being any guarantee either way, and thankfully there are more safeguards these days than previously. Not enough, but more, and hopefully we are moving in the right direction. But it's often the case that we regret things in hindsight.

Marilyn Manson was the zeitgeist for my generation. It was honestly an awful time, ladettes lauded when it was just an excuse to get us on board with being referred to as slts and bthces and degrade ourselves in order to be seen as cool girls. MM has always been repulsive in a very overt way and his relationship with ERW came even later than that time I think. I want to believe her but I can't help thinking that she was not as naive as she claims. I liken it to the situation between Mandy Moore and Ryan Adams. She wanted a different reputation, she had a thing with Jack Osborn too. It wasn't completely random.

I feel wretched for how I'm thinking about this, honestly, probably conditioned by society at the time but I'd like to evolve!

I believe ERW. She testified under oath at Congress about the abuse, albeit without naming MM. When she did name him, her career was doing well. I don't see what motivation she had for lying.

A person in an abusive relationship does not always recognise that what is happening to them is abuse and not normal. Abusers are manipulative and can make you think up is down.

Jellycats4life · 18/01/2025 18:37

MilitantFawcett · 18/01/2025 16:20

Some wise mumsnetter said something on another thread that all the focus on “consent” nowadays makes it harder to spot coercive behaviour. That really struck me watching this documentary. His lawyer kept banging on about how the relationships were consensual, without any understanding that consensual can still be abusive. It really looked like those women consented to things because the alternative would be worse.

That’s such a great point, and it also applies to the Neil Gaiman story.

Also the notion of “kink shaming” makes people really afraid of calling out the abuse of women, because (in some circles at least) there’s such social pressure to be loudly “sex positive”, not be a vanilla bore, and to “not yuck someone’s yum” 🤢

TimeForSomething · 18/01/2025 19:00

His book Long Hard Road Out Of Hell was published in 1998 and even then he was clear about what he was and the awful things he did. I have no idea how people ever thought he was parter material tbh

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2025 22:53

Thanks @PandoraSox

TonTonMacoute · 19/01/2025 19:49

A person in an abusive relationship does not always recognise that what is happening to them is abuse and not normal. Abusers are manipulative and can make you think up is down.

And they are very good at identifying people who are susceptible.

I think it's probably an insoluble problem, people will continue to abuse others under the excuse that they 'wanted it'. What do you say to an adult who insists they know what they are doing and it's all fine? ...Until it's not? Lock them up?

Lalgarh · 20/01/2025 00:44

The depressing thing was all the footage of lines of his teenage girl fans with signs like "abuse me" and then that clique of 3 die hards they had at the end who were launching a hate campaign against the women who were accusing him

RedLightsStopSigns · 20/01/2025 00:59

@MollyRover Marilyn Manson was the zeitgeist for my generation. It was honestly an awful time, ladettes lauded when it was just an excuse to get us on board with being referred to as slts and bthces and degrade ourselves in order to be seen as cool girls.

Wow, I’ve felt this for years but never seen anyone else talk about it. I feel like my entire sexual identity was so confused for years as I just desperately wanted boys to like me and they seemed to like the women in lads mags and porn stars and women who wanted anal and rough sex (strangulation, spitting, slapping) and threesomes, shaving off my pubes, etc. I spent years doing these sorts of things consensually but looking back it wasn’t ever what I wanted. I’m still trying to unpick it all and try to figure what I actually want from sex. I got myself into some quite dangerous scenarios.

I have ADHD and have always felt different and masked and “been” what I thought other people would like, so there’s that side to it as well.

I would have defended kinks and Marilyn Manson and all the rest when I was younger and probably secretly judged women who didn’t like it as “vanilla”. It makes me feel absolutely sick.

I don’t think I can bring myself to watch this documentary as I think I’d find it very triggering.

SabreIsMyFave · 20/01/2025 11:57

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SabreIsMyFave · 20/01/2025 12:00

I'm not really massively familiar with Marilyn Manson's music. I think I could name three songs, and I've never been a big fan of him, and his Antichrist Devil worshipping nonsense just makes me roll my eyes.

I watched this documentary though, and quite honestly, I was disgusted and shocked, and it takes a lot to do that to me ... How he used and abused these teenage girls (who pretty much were all under age, even though he denies this,) is disgusting. He manipulated them and drew them in, like some kind of cult leader.

And these young women he was in relationships with, were used and abused - especially Evan Rachel Wood... And it's awful that a few women are still obsessed with Manson and are calling other women liars. And Manson's lawyer is calling them liars, and laughing at them like they're silly little girls, who are just attention-seeking. The mockery of these victims is so bad that some have gone into hiding, suffered mental health problems, and had their career ruined. It's easy to see why some women don't come forward when they are sexually abused. They are scared of not being believed, and being mocked and derided.

And because of the statute of limitations in the USA, (12-15 years I think it is,) there is not very much they can do ... I think he's paid a few girls off, but most of the cases have been thrown out of court, because it's basically 'his word against hers.' Some of them consented, but as the above poster said, they might have consented - but it might not necessarily be what they wanted. It's probably what they thought they should do because they've been coerced and manipulated into doing it.

Not even remotely the same, but I was goaded and coerced into smoking when I was 16 and first started working in a factory. (I stopped at 21.) I started because I wanted to fit in with the women there, and thought I was 'cool' doing it! But yeah, young girls are vulnerable and can be drawn into dangerous situations that can be harmful to them, because they want to 'fit in,' IYSWIM.

It's just absolutely horrific and shows how dangerous it can be if there are vulnerable or shy girls who are trying to do things that men want them to do to be cool, and make the men like them. Even now, I don't think Manson has actually been called into question for anything or gone to court or gone to jail or anything ... And I find it just outrageous.

He is also extremely unattractive, and quite an ugly man. And I have no idea whatsoever why all these teenage girls worshipped him! I'm glad my daughters were born a few years too late so they couldn't be obsessed with him (they weren't born till the mid/late 1990s.) They were just fans of emo bands. like Paramore, Fall Out Boy, and 30 seconds to Mars. And even though their music was a bit grungy, they were quite clean living bands.

What Manson does to Evan Rachel Wood - on the video they were making is horrific ... You can tell that she wasn't enjoying it. I think (like a lot of women sadly,) she felt that she had to do it, because he coerced her into it by saying the images would be blurred out on the final cut. (They weren't!) Some young women do things they would rather not do to 'fit in' or be 'cool,' or to keep their man. Some women can't see (at the time) that they are being used and abused, by disgusting, perverted, controlling men, and it makes me desperately sad.

I'm hoping we've got a new generation of women these days who will refuse to do this kind of thing, and will not do anything just because a man says so. I genuinely pray for women seeing this. Manson is just an abuser through and through. But because of the statue of limitations, there's not much anybody can do.

Glittertwins · 20/01/2025 12:08

I'll go and watch this later if it's available on catch up. I loved the music, saw the band play (when it was a band, not him as a solo) but I'd heard enough about him and the band to not go to the backstage parties. What has come out since then is a whole lot worse and I rarely listen to the music now.

WongKarWhy · 20/01/2025 12:11

Exhaustedtiredneedabreak · 18/01/2025 14:51

Was it him that courtney love refused to tour with ? I seem to remember she was sued for pullin out of a tour because the other band were abusing her teenage female fans. I can't remember who it was but she was the first one to call out Harvey weinstein so I'm inclined to believe her judgement in sleazy men.

I'm not sure, I know she made similar accusations about Korn and other metal bands using and abusing their young fans. I don't remember her saying so about Manson, but I do remember they didn't get on and their tour was cancelled.