Lockerbie - Sky Atlantic

[witchycat2]

Is anyone watching this? Stars Colin Firth as Jim Swire.

The first episode was horrifying when they depicted the plane crashing down on Lockerbie. The bodies, the baby, the seats, the woman hanging in a tree... the little boy who went out for a bike ride and then returned to a crater where his house once was. His whole family gone.

I wasn't even born when it happened, but I've read quite a bit about the politics and events that have followed. This may be a controversial 'drama' but it does illustrate the real horrors of that night.

Heartbreaking for those families. I remember it well. I was 23 and was getting ready to start celebrating with friends. I remember reading that Dr Swire didn’t think the accused was guilty. A cover up for national interest wouldn’t surprise me.

The Americans had accidentally but 'negligently' shot down an Iranian passenger plane a few months before.

It's always seemed the most plausible motive that they downed PA103 as revenge.

The trial was a mess.

I'm on the fence as to whether it was Libya/Megrahi but I understand why Jim Swire doubted his guilt.

Something that wasn't mentioned was that it was a particularly old plane. Newer planes have withstood worse damage to the fuselage and landed. It was a mid air break up rather than a big mid air explosion. That's why so many bodies with few visible injuries were found scattered far and wide.

It's the worst ever terrorist attack in the uk yet so many people born since the 80s have never heard of it.

I think you could say similar about mainland IRA bombing campaigns I'm not absolutely sure whether my DD born in 97 would know who the IRA are - maybe from knowing the song Zombies. Maybe everything before was overshadowed by 9/11.

There's a book about the other flight that was downed and the fight for justice for the victims. It's written by a lawyer so it focuses on the legal fight, but it is still very moving. I didn't know about the memorial in the desert before I read the book.

www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-Flight-Terrorism-Diplomacy-Pursuit/dp/1786070928?dplnkId=510c1705-6a7c-4bf7-a850-44bb027f5f4b&nodl=1

I feel like I watched something quite recently about this. It had Lorraine Kelly in it as she was one of the first reporters on the scene if I remember correctly

@unmemorableusername

Something that wasn't mentioned was that it was a particularly old plane. Newer planes have withstood worse damage to the fuselage and landed.

That’s a new one to me, Lockerbie was the big security breach in the aviation world for a decade until 9/11 happened so for about a decade this was the big discussion item during security training sessions and I sat through a few a few briefings where this attack was discussed ( those discussions involved people in the aviation security business) and aircraft age was never mentioned as one of the important factors.

Yes some newer planes have withstood worse damage but a heck of a lot depends on where the damage occurs (so if caused by explosives where any device was located) aircraft differential pressure at the time, and to some extent what packed was around the device.

That is just so sad. I remember that night well. We are watching this and I think this along with 9/11 are the two incidents which marked a new evil in the world.

As for records etc we will never know the truth about it. All governments are the same and have their wheelings and dealings going on.

I'm torn on whether to watch this. My dad was part of the recovery and the things he saw were unthinkable - it changed him.

I started watching it last night but had to stop in the first episode because it was so horrific, verging on gratuitous I felt. Very upsetting - don't know why I agreed to watch it because I never watch that sort of thing.

Are the later episodes less explicit? I think I might be interested to find out about the investigation, but the depiction of the attack was way too much for me.

Yes they're much less explicit

I finished the documentary and I was actually surprised how close to real events the series with Colin Firth was. I don't think they changed any material details.

Watched the first episode last night and was in floods of tears.

I remember this very well as I worked in the travel industry and was in my mid 30's at the time.

I can honestly say that from the first episode it was obvious so much was covered up and I can so understand the families' fight for justice and truth.

Colin Firth, I feel, is magnificent in the role.

Have finished superb acting all round.

i can well believe a cover up to sort whatever alliance government wanted at the time.

Before watching this I had no idea that so many believe al-Megrahi was innocent. I thought his involvement was undeniable, but it appears he could have been innocent? Is that possible?

I must say I always found it odd that the bomb travelled on so many different planes before reaching its desired destination at Heathrow. Wouldn't that be a huge risk to take and a big flaw in the plan? It would have been much simpler to plant the bomb at Heathrow rather than have it travel on various planes beforehand. Not only could it have been detected or the luggage not put on the correct flight when changing 3 planes but also any flight delay could completely mess up the timer.

I must say I always found it odd that the bomb travelled on so many different planes before reaching its desired destination at Heathrow. Wouldn't that be a huge risk to take and a big flaw in the plan? It would have been much simpler to plant the bomb at Heathrow rather than have it travel on various planes

No, for several reasons.

One of which is the miscreant had to find a way of getting the device in baggage into the system somewhere where it was least likely to be detected, and/or possibly somewhere he might get assistance…

Even back in 88 Heathrow was probably a relatively difficult place to do that.

I’m planning on watching this but will need to steel myself, thinking of it is so upsetting.

I remember it vividly, I was 10. We came home from a friends, turned on the TV and there is was. We watched it in silence. My friend’s dad was one of the first responders, he was helicoptered over from our town. He’s never spoken about what he saw, too traumatising.

lockerbie has an ice rink (it’s a farming community, they are very good at curling, many world champions have come from there). The locals took the bodies into the ice rink and it was used as a morgue, to keep the bodies cold. I have friends who lost loved ones in the crash, and my old professor at Law School was from Lockerbie and he was one of the people who engineered the trial of al Megrahi (it was held in the Netherlands, but with a Scottish court, Scottish judges under Scots Law).

But hasn't the baggage handler at Heathrow literally said 2 new bags appeared in his lunch break that he didn't know anything about (one of which was a suitcase like the one that contained the bomb)? And there was a break-in at Heathrow the day before the crash.

Not heard of the baggage handlers tale so have to pass on that and as I understand it the break in story only emerged at appeal and got given short shrift.

In terms of the question you asked, that it was odd that the bomb travelled on so many aircraft, From a bombers POV (and I accept who that was is a whole other story) It would make a lot of sense to get the device in the system maybe a few links down the chain from the flight they were targeting, somewhere with maybe a relatively porous security system (remember by 88 the UK and Western Europe had had twentyish years of some fairly serious terrorist activity, so the airport security in that part of the world was relatively “tight” compared with elsewhere.).

So Heathrow…not a great option Frankfurt, umm, not that great really…somewhere more relaxed…more likely.

I accept folks want to run with other theories and probably always will want to do so.

I hadn't known about the baggage handler and the extra bags before, I always thought it was loaded at Frankfurt

The baggage handler gave evidence at the trial and is also mentioned in the documentary as well as the series. Dr Swire was convinced it was loaded at Heathrow

From the documentary it appears that key witnesses were paid huge sums of money by the US to testify. That was very odd and doesn't speak to their credibility. Apparently they paid the money (in the millions) to help with the witnesses' security. 🤔

I'm not saying al Megrahi was innocent as his own behaviour was very odd, but the evidence against him wasn't very strong.

It's interesting that the US families were outraged at his lenient sentence and early release and the British families were outraged that he was convicted at all.

There's something in those files otherwise they wouldn't keep them top secret. It will come out one day, just like the lie about 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' did.

I thought it was excellent. All the actors did really well but in particular Catherine McCormack as Flora’s grieving mother. The moment when she counted to 15 in front of the minister was harrowing.

Yes, it doesn't make sense otherwise. It also makes no sense that there has never been an independent inquiry into Lockerbie. That's quite shocking given how many inquiries there have been into pretty much all high profile tragedies on UK soil over the years and this is still one of thee most high profile cases with the most number of victims.

I wonder what they are trying to cover up - is it that they knew this attack was coming but hid it from the public or is it that al Megrahi was a scapegoat and they knew who was behind it but didn't go after them? Was evidence really tampered with and witnesses bribed (the latter appears to be the case as in the documentary the US admitted paying some of the witnesses millions it appears)?

I think the Libyan guy in the documentary at the very end had the most likely theory - that all three Iran, the Palestinian terror group and Libya were all involved.