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Does wolf hall get better?

146 replies

Cantonet · 10/11/2024 17:47

I've just watched the first episode of the first series in preparation for the new series.
I feel like I'm watching a deeply repressive, utterly grim play. Is this series a slow burner? Or shall I give up watching now?

OP posts:
Eyesopenwideawake · 13/11/2024 21:34

Just watched S1/E1 and couldn't stop laughing. It was dire - dreadful acting and totally unbelievable script.

OwlDoll · 13/11/2024 21:42

One of the best things about the show is the music. I've been listening to the soundtrack on repeat all week.

StrungWithSilverBellsAndFlowers · 13/11/2024 21:53

I loved the books, I think Hilary Mantel was a genius (though it took me a few chapters of WH to get used to her writing style).

And I love the TV series, I've been so excited about S2 starting this autumn. For me, Mark Rylance IS Cromwell, and I think his portrayal is utterly brilliant and completely convincing.

Henry VIII was an absolute shit.

TimeforaGandT · 13/11/2024 22:51

I love the books (have re-read more than once), seen the plays and the TV series. I think they have all been excellent in different ways.

Maybe Mark Rylance doesn’t have the physical bulk described in the books but he is still able to be menacing without that to those who consider stepping out of line. For me, it’s TV drama at its finest and period accuracy such as the darkness and candlelight convey the reality and inconvenience of the time when it would have been difficult to read a letter without standing by the window/holding it under a candle etc.

pikkumyy77 · 13/11/2024 23:19

DysonSphere · 13/11/2024 13:10

I think any and every race has a right to insist on exclusivity when it comes to sharing their culture or a right to gate keep their cultural works in terms of how they're represented. They shouldn't be be forced to open their cultural representations to include other races in order to be seen as inclusive.

It's absolutely ok for black people to gatekeep cultural works regarding black historical figures and black works of art and fashion. So I have no idea why it's seen as incumbent upon white people or any other race to have no barriers in terms of the way films or programs or theatre depicting their culture are represented. I really don't understand the resentment over a race saying 'we want our fictional works particularly in this historical context, to be represented by white people or black people or asian people etc etc'

I think it's cultural colonialism. Which admittedly white people have been guilty PLENTY times of perpetrating, but hopefully times are changing where that sort of thing is becoming less appropriate and is called out when it happens.

That said it's ultimately the director's choice and he chose to include a culturally diverse cast. I have no idea if that was due to having to meet externally imposed quotas, or only down to the the superior acting ability of the actors chosen over other actors auditioning for those roles.

What are you planning to do about mixed race english people? May they not act in shakespeare?

girljulian · 13/11/2024 23:23

I think it's absolutely fantastic -- I do think I enjoyed it more for having also really enjoyed the books. But it does a good job of conveying the key things imo, especially Cromwell's conflicted relationship with Anne, and Damien Lewis as Henry is such perfect casting.

IwantToRetire · 14/11/2024 17:43

Have now finished re-watching and still cant work out why it was so highly praised.

I've realised that one of the problems with this portrayal (which might not be a problem in the book) is there is nothing to indicate why Cromwell behaved as he did. No attempt to explain why he would get involved it what everyone would be aware is a tight rope between slipping into an abyss, and getting power.

Although some mention of his varied past life why is he so intent of being part of this political plotting. Its not as though he had a demanding wife wanting an improved life style, or a strong belief about steering Henry towards one particular strand of Christianity, or ...

It is just shown that he will undertake any task to what? please Henry? be in a position of power?

Just a complete vaccuum.

As for his weird relationship with women ...

Will say that as things got worse for Anne, I thought Clare Foy was good.

And in fact have never forgotten, with out realising it was from this, the French executioner, and the way he tried to hide from Anne where he was and then distract her at the end.

But still find the complete lack of any indication of why Cromwell would have willingly carried out the duplicitous role he played is a really negative element to the series.

Cynic17 · 14/11/2024 17:46

Er, it's completely brilliant from the very beginning. So if it gets better, then it's going to be off the charts!

Cynic17 · 14/11/2024 17:49

SwedishEdith · 10/11/2024 20:04

God, I loved it. Haven't read the books as I'm a lazy reader and have the impression they're "hard work".

Don't really understand the "It just looks so cheap compared to streamer dramas". But I don't really want glitz.

Agreed. It looks anything but "cheap"! The time and attention to detail lavished on the look and feel of it must have been endless. Every scene looks like a painting, IMO.

IwantToRetire · 14/11/2024 17:56

If this is accurate (taken from an article)

During his service to Cardinal Wolsey in the 1520s, Cromwell became a quiet friend to the Thames Valley Lollards, a group of religious dissenters that questioned the established church.

Over the following decade, when Henry VIII effectively granted him Wolsey’s powers in the church, he became a busy and effective promoter of the new religion and its enthusiasts. And in his latter years, he became a discreet organiser of contacts with the most radical European mainstream Reformations, in Zurich and northern Switzerland – far beyond anything the king could have approved, and highly dangerous for him. That was not the action of a political cynic.

there is nothing in the series that indicates he has any feelings either way about religion.

They have as posted up thread, every scene looks like a painting. ie beautifully staged but empty of meaning.

In my earlier post I said it was like Rylance is just moving from one portrait post to another.

Given the completely HUGE importance of religions during this time, to not have any scenes showing how or even if Cromwell had any loyalties is a complete failure in terms of an historical drama.

I presume that Mantel does explore this is the books.

IwantToRetire · 15/11/2024 01:48

It's almost as though rather than create a sensible narrative to explain and help move the story (events) forward, the production is more like a series of beautifully crafted tableaus, with no sense of how they are part of an evolving story about England breaking away from Rome, and a King who is obsessed by his sucession.

A bit like televising a Jane Austen and just having a series of social events and interactions where everyone is nicely dressed, or dancing or whatever, but you never hear or understand what the characters are thinking about themselves and others, and what is around them.

Certainly not to be recommended to someone studying this period in history for their exams.

pikkumyy77 · 15/11/2024 12:31

I agree with this brilliant observation that the film directing produces a kind of “tableau vivant” portrait to portrait sense. With non of the interiority of the book. If I recall the first series correctly I think I had to rely heavily on my memory of the books in order to make sense of what was going on. The pacing and order of the scenes and the motivations of the characters made sense only if you remembered the book.

IcedPurple · 15/11/2024 13:22

IwantToRetire · 14/11/2024 17:56

If this is accurate (taken from an article)

During his service to Cardinal Wolsey in the 1520s, Cromwell became a quiet friend to the Thames Valley Lollards, a group of religious dissenters that questioned the established church.

Over the following decade, when Henry VIII effectively granted him Wolsey’s powers in the church, he became a busy and effective promoter of the new religion and its enthusiasts. And in his latter years, he became a discreet organiser of contacts with the most radical European mainstream Reformations, in Zurich and northern Switzerland – far beyond anything the king could have approved, and highly dangerous for him. That was not the action of a political cynic.

there is nothing in the series that indicates he has any feelings either way about religion.

They have as posted up thread, every scene looks like a painting. ie beautifully staged but empty of meaning.

In my earlier post I said it was like Rylance is just moving from one portrait post to another.

Given the completely HUGE importance of religions during this time, to not have any scenes showing how or even if Cromwell had any loyalties is a complete failure in terms of an historical drama.

I presume that Mantel does explore this is the books.

Maybe the religious side of things will be emphasised more when we get to the Anne of Cleves period? Cromwell pushed the marriage because he wanted an alliance with a Lutheran Duchy, although this was probably for strategic reasons as much as Cromwell's own personal religious leanings.

Also, weren't there scenes showing Cromwell getting into religious debates with Thomas More in the first series?

I agree that it would probably be hard to follow this series if you hadn't read the books or weren't familiar with the history of the period.

ThePoshUns · 16/11/2024 08:45

I'm 5 episodes into S1 and loving it. I do have to concentrate on it fully, which is great.
I love the dark and the light, it's beautifully shot.

SnakesAndArrows · 16/11/2024 09:14

I have slight face blindness so that, coupled with the lack of lighting, made it unwatchable. Since then I’ve acquired a much better TV so am thinking of giving it another go.

On colour-blind casting, this troubles me where actual historical events are depicted. No, Tudor England was not diverse or tolerant, and dishonesty about the past reduces our ability to learn from it.

ParanormalNorman · 16/11/2024 09:21

I love it - but it's my kind of thing. I like reasonably accurate historical dramas.

However, the first episode is a good representation of the whole series so if you're not keen at this stage, it's unlikely to improve for you I think.

westisbest1982 · 16/11/2024 09:22

PandoraSox · 11/11/2024 20:39

"It has been noted that Mantel herself, who died in 2022, argued in favour of diverse casting in a 2021 interview, saying: "It’s difficult for me, because to me they’re not characters, they’re people, and I have a very strong sense of them physically.

"But as soon as you move to stage or the screen, that must yield because you’re in the realm of representation. I think we have to take on board the new thinking." "

www.radiotimes.com/tv/drama/wolf-hall-colour-blind-casting-newsupdate/

Edited

Let get real here - what else was she going to say?

BigDahliaFan · 16/11/2024 09:24

Yes, I gave up first time round at episode 1. Despite loving the book and play. Just tried again, its brilliant. At least give it one more episode.

PandoraSox · 16/11/2024 10:00

westisbest1982 · 16/11/2024 09:22

Let get real here - what else was she going to say?

Mantel was not afraid to speak her mind. As demonstrated by what she wrote about Kate Middleton.

pikkumyy77 · 16/11/2024 12:17

Its really not impossible that people can have a different feeling about color blind casting. Mantel, and I, and others might sincerely believe that its good in a number of ways including dramatically, aesthetically, socially, politically. We aren’t just having you on or yielding to force majeure.

DaylightTreachery · 16/11/2024 12:46

PandoraSox · 16/11/2024 10:00

Mantel was not afraid to speak her mind. As demonstrated by what she wrote about Kate Middleton.

Which was not about Kate Middleton, but the somewhat sinister importance of royal bodies, and royal public images, especially female ones, and the experience of being looked at. It’s a brilliant piece of writing (and very much of a piece with her writing of Henry and Anne’s bodies in the Wolf Hall trilogy, plus the bit of Cromwell who likes to estimate the cost of Wolsey’s clothes). Only the tabloids misread it and turned it into an anti-KM or anti-Diana lambasting.

Link for anyone who hasn’t read it.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v35/n04/hilary-mantel/royal-bodies

Hilary Mantel · Royal Bodies

Our current royal family doesn’t have the difficulties in breeding that pandas do, but pandas and royal persons alike...

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v35/n04/hilary-mantel/royal-bodies

BeatrizBoniface · 16/11/2024 14:42

I'm enjoying it, but Mark Rylance has a strange delivery - very monotone and dull. Damian Lewis and Claire Foy are excellent.

BeatrizBoniface · 16/11/2024 16:26

The costumes are amazing, aren't they? Henry in gold and shimmering green. Just beautiful.

WeeLucy · 12/12/2024 11:57

Thoroughly enjoyed it up until the appearance of the woke casting which is absolutely ridiculous. Can we now look forward to the dramatisation of Nelson Mandela’s life with his mother in law played by Nicole Kidman?

Sausagenbacon · 12/12/2024 14:47

I agree with you. I'm enjoying it despite it