Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Telly addicts

Our Flag Means Death - Thread 4: Roll up, roll up! Come join us for more pirate obsession!

989 replies

TriceratopsRocks · 06/08/2024 22:08

Ahoy again mateys! Can you believe we are now aboard thread 4? Stick around for chat about this brilliant show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more than a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back and join us 😀

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, three full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But be aware that it's a show that needs time. It’s structured like a theatre production, with a prologue and 3 acts. The 2nd lead arrives (briefly) in episode 3. Episode 4 is the start of Act 1, where the tone changes and the main story begins. You need to give it at least 4 episodes, and from there it just gets better and better. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. And again. And again! If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might well be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5101662-our-flag-means-death-thread-3-its-still-utterly-brilliant-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=137315706

Page 38 | Our Flag Means Death. It's utterly brilliant and I am obsessed! | Mumsnet

I'm sure I found a thread on this series a while ago, but now season 2 is out I've looked back and I can't find anything apart from the...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204

OP posts:
Thread gallery
211
TriceratopsRocks · 23/08/2024 21:50

CarterBeatsTheDevil · 23/08/2024 20:56

I imagine most of you have already seen this but just in case

https://x.com/bUtterscUp95/status/1826540306625691914

Oh thank you so much for that, @CarterBeatsTheDevil . I hadn't seen it. That suit is wonderful on him. I might also have noticed the tightness of the trousers around his thighs... 🫣. And all those poses! He looked utterly scrumptious 😍

OP posts:
MrsJellybee · 24/08/2024 10:37

@BillStickersIsInnocent I think there’s a lighthouse involved in the Little Lorraine story so perhaps he’s playing that 🤣

MrsJellybee · 24/08/2024 15:55

Vico’s ace. But gonna be honest. Bit gutted it’s not Nathan.

Our Flag Means Death - Thread 4: Roll up, roll up! Come join us for more pirate obsession!
lizziesaurusx · 24/08/2024 20:45

Vico will be fantastic but I was really hoping it would be Nathan as well - he's so sharp and so funny.

TeabySea · 25/08/2024 10:24

Looking into going, and wondering if there's anywhere cheaper to stay, within walking distance. Can get the train there.
Also wondering what the chances are of being able to talk to them all.

DJ47 · 25/08/2024 13:33

Google maps has a guesthouse just north of the Renaissance for about half the price- although having looked at some reviews don’t even think about it 😵

lizziesaurusx · 25/08/2024 14:09

I wish they'd put up the info about hotel prices just to be able to get an idea of the total cost. I just looked up the hotel and, if I've got the right one, they're not joking about being a stone's throw from Heathrow - they have rooms with 'runway view' and it looks like they're almost on top of the runway.

lizziesaurusx · 25/08/2024 15:22

@MrsJellybee
Thank you for 2.6 @TriceratopsRocks

I know this episode had significant rewrites. There should have been an episode between 2.5 and this one, I think. For the first time for me, this is where the entire series wobbles and the story doesn’t flow smoothly.

I watched 2.5 and 2.6 yesterday and remembered reading your discussion of 2.6 - wonderful points both of you, lots of food for thought. I hope it's OK to go back a few pages and reply.

It would make sense if there would originally have been an episode between 2.5 and 2.6; as it is, I think it wobbles in 2.5, or between 2.4 and 2.5. I adore the ending of 2.4, when Ed realises he can change and then Seabird, but it’s too much of a jump to think that he then sorts everything out in his head between then and the start of 2.5, and with a fishing trip with lovely Fang. Of course we know he doesn’t, as evidenced in his reaction to Stede’s fame in 2.7, but I feel it’s all so rushed here too. There’s no significant interaction with any of the crew Ed harmed apart from Fang and Lucius, and pushing Ed off the ship understandably isn’t enough for Lucius either.

In 2.5 and 2.6 Ed’s realisation that he can change is never articulated, and and he never speaks to any of the crew about it apart from Fang and Lucius. Which I think is a lack, even a show that’s ostensibly a comedy. I don’t think it works having a character doing such terrible things and then never articulating an apology. It makes me unsure when Izzy says at the end ‘they all love you, Ed.’ Of course we do as viewers, but do all the crew really manage to move on that fast?

Much as I love both the fishing scenes and the cursed suit in 2.5, and the idea of showing Ed and Stede doing things on their own after their reunion, and of course YWFTW 2, I think 2.6 hangs together better than 2.5. I agree about Ed’s slight detachedness – I’d be interested to know about the filming schedule, but I think, unless it was absolutely at the end and he was exhausted,* Taika is too good an actor to be detached unless he’s choosing to be. But Ed has none of his playfulness in 2.6: I think he’s ill at ease because he’s preoccupied – at the start he can sense there’s a storm coming but can’t see what it is. As well as a general unease foreshadowing Ned Low, Ricky Banes etc, because they're back being pirates and looking at the external world rather than their emotional drama, I think that on a personal level he’s aware that his rehab with the crew has a long way to go and isn’t going to be fixed by a party. At the start of the episode he talks about his ‘guilt room’ and does the briefest possible apology to Izzy. The fishing trip and YWFTW2 are positive steps, but he knows that for a reckoning followed by rehab/redemption with the crew, things will have to get more complicated and feelings will need to be acknowledged. Maybe he's uncomfortable with the idea of a party with so much unexpressed and unresolved tensions, even if he doesn’t realise that’s the case, and that expresses itself as detachment?

*Any excuse to post the Taika Naptiti thread

Taika Waititi on X: "Finally! A place where all the photos can live. There are more out there too. People with Taika sleeping photos must come forward. This is a safe space." / X

x.com

https://x.com/TaikaWaititi/status/1232118364937474048

MrsJellybee · 25/08/2024 17:39

@lizziesaurusx thanks for returning to these scenes.

I do get your point about 2.5. Whilst I’m probably blinded by YWFTW2, I do think it holds up well as an episode for the most part. I prefer it personally to 2.6. Ed’s detachment from the crew in 2.6 is painful, and I agree this is perfect Taika-acting actually rather than past his bedtime really. 😉 No playfulness as you say in 2.6. Too much on his mind…

Where the weaknesses occur for me in 2.5 and in the rest of the series is with Ed’s redemption arc. The problem for me is that Ed’s apologies are meaningless unless the Crew fully understand how Ed came to be in such despair. And they never do. Their narrative is ‘Stede left, Ed went insane, tortured, threatened and terrorised them.’ They’re missing the key piece of information of Izzy and the threat to Ed’s life, and the demand for gender-conforming behaviour (‘namby pamby’) including emotional suppression, which causes the Kraken spiral. The show-writers chose to try and redeem both Ed and Izzy, and proved you cannot serve two masters. To even attempt Izzy’s arc (I’m not getting into if it actually occurs or when), he needs the Crew on side. This cannot happen if they know his full involvement in Ed’s spiral, I believe. And the narrative truth of Ed’s spiral is sacrificed.

Because what is Ed apologising for? Being driven mad when in an extremely vulnerable state and attempting ‘death by Ned Low’, ‘death by Izzy’ and finally ‘death by cop Crew’ suicide.

Does Ed need to apologise for his behaviour? Yes. Does Izzy also need to apologise to the Crew for his behaviour? Absolutely. Does Izzy need to apologise to Ed? Yes, please, and preferably before his deathbed.

Izzy knows what he’s done. He says Ed went mad. He then tells Stede ‘You and me did this to him, and we cannot let the crew suffer any more for our mistakes’. Possibly. Not sure it’s 50/50, Izzy. But okay. So Ed went ‘mad’, and both Izzy and Stede are to blame for the most part.

Ed’s culpability is for me, and I can’t stress enough this is my personal take, the same as an abused spouse who acts terribly towards their children whilst in a state of mental torture and fear. Does that spouse once out of that situation need to apologise to their children for the circumstances they found themselves in and the fear they felt? Yes. Ed needs to apologise in a way that validates the Crew’s feelings of terror. He was Captain of that ship and had a duty of care to the Crew, as a parent does towards their children. ‘Sorry, but’ doesn’t cut it. But is Ed/the abused spouse fully to blame for what happened. Absolutely not. Not even close.

It’s Izzy who needs to apologise to the Crew, and Hell will freeze over before that happens. It cannot happen narratively if the show-writers wanted to redeem him. Which they did. Because certain areas of the fandom worshipped him. And then the show-writers killed him. Because narratively that also needed to happen. And now everyone’s confused and no-one’s satisfied. Our catharsis, and Ed’s, was sacrificed to another character’s supposed redemption which I feel personally was ultimately pointless.

And I too adore Taika Napiti!

2pence · 26/08/2024 10:43

My friend who was watching didn't much like the last half of Season 2, said it felt rushed and found it confusing. Her favourite character is Izzy! I don't get it either but each to their own eh?

I've watched it all the way through 3 times now. The second time was because I couldn't believe that I'd missed the love story for the most part and had to wonder at my own bias in that I hadn't seen what I hadn't been looking for. The third time though was pure indulgence, and the observations on here have made it more enjoyable. I love the subversion, and Taika in a long wig with any length beard in leather and tattoos certainly helps :D

I might be rocking the boat here, but maybe because I'm not in so deep, I can't get onboard with Ed being the victim in his attempt to murder the entire crew. The comparison to abused spouses who harm their children leaves a nasty taste with me. There are plenty of real life cases, male and female, and whatever they've suffered themselves, they don't have the right to murder those who rely on them.

What drew me to the show (before Ed turned up in all his long haired, leathered loveliness) was the contemporary sensibilities on an 18C pirate ship juxtaposition. I think the theme runs throughout, particularly with the Ned Low episode and Hellcat Maggie's adoption of Stede's management style. I also think Archie becomes our new reliable narrator, as Lucius was in Season 1.

Ed's non apology and Archie's acceptance and return to Business As Normal made me laugh because it's so depressingly accurate. Those who hold power are rarely held to the same accountability as their staff. We also see the same acceptance of the way things really are when Archie fights Jim because they've been ordered to, even though Archie knows it's the wrong thing to do. The power of Hierarchy is very real. Bring Blackbeard's fame into the mixture and that power is magnified.

I was also pondering on Ed's leaving to be a fisherman after his night with Stede. My friend found this part particularly confusing when we talked about it. I wondered if this was an act of self preservation in seeing Stede become the famous pirate he'd always dreamed of being and Ed being afraid to ask Stede to give this up and face further rejection.

MrsJellybee · 26/08/2024 12:05

@2pence I absolutely agree that Ed has wronged the crew. I might be looking at it through a modern lens of safeguarding, but to me he had that responsibility to them. As a teacher to pupils, as a parent to their children. And he does need to apologise properly. The YouTube apology whilst funny doesn’t cut it and I fully empathise with Lucius’ reaction. But if Ed needs to apologise then so does Izzy, much more so than Ed, and I rarely see anyone say that Izzy needs to own up for his part in what happened.

Just for the record, I never said in my previous post that abused spouses have the right to murder those who rely on them(?) I said abused spouses sometimes visit terror upon their children and should fully apologise if given the chance without a ‘Yes, but’. Yet the abuser of the spouse is responsible also, and possibly more so. It’s very complex. Izzy knows he has done wrong and never lets on to the Crew.

Ed isn’t trying to murder the Crew. He is trying to provoke them into murdering him. It’s like Suicide by Cop. Of course he puts their life in danger, but this is a pirate world. It’s not ours. Things happen. Who is right and who is wrong is never really asked by the screenwriters.

Initially Ed is trying to provoke Ned Low into murdering him. That’s what the raids are all about. In the trailer, which they cut from the final season 2 edit, Ed throws a knife at a wall in which he is keeping a tally chart of all his raids. He says after shooting Izzy ‘We have a record to break’, Ned Low’s. He knows Low will turn up and kill him if he does. Unfortunately (or fortunately) that happens after Stede’s return.

He tries to get Izzy to shoot him from behind. He refuses, which is his right.

Ed realises he needs to get the Crew to do it. He changes his clothes so he has the least possible chance of survival. He is barefoot so he can be easily washed overboard. He wears a long leather duster jacket which will pull him down into the ocean. Ed is also unarmed. I can’t stress that enough. He puts Stede’s black cravat tight around his neck as a last act of symbolic heartbreak. If he’d wanted to murder everyone, he’d simply shoot the mast. But he doesn’t. Instead he dresses for his suicide.

When he tells them he’s destroyed the wheel, he expects them to kill him. They don’t. When he tells Jim and Archie to fight, he expects them all to kill him instead. But they comply until they don’t. You are absolutely correct that they are following orders. Mutiny is a capital offence and we see later discussions around that. This is a desperate situation.

Ed then goes to light the fuse, and still no one does anything until Izzy fires his shot into Ed’s arm. That’s the trigger for Fang to rush Ed. It gives him permission. And for them all to consent to whatever it is Jim does with the cannonball. Ed’s word, ‘Finally’ reveals his endgame. He never wanted the Crew to die, he wanted to die. Should he have simply killed himself? Probably, but self-preservation is a strong instinct, which is why the situation Suicide by Cop exists in our time. Were the Crew collateral damage. Yep. Was it fair on them? No. Is the situation incredibly complex? Definitely.

The whole situation around Izzy’s power over Ed goes back to Ed’s relationship with his white father. It’s about race. It’s too complicated to go into here. I’m sure I’ve covered it elsewhere in previous threads.

I might come back later and address the Fisherman incident. Suffice to say Ed is not a well person. Taika plays Ed as a character with what we would call now Dissociative Identity Disorder. David Jenkins said Ed is a man in recovery by 2.8, but not recovered. We needed season three to see that recovery.

2pence · 26/08/2024 13:57

"Just for the record, I never said in my previous post that abused spouses have the right to murder those who rely on them(?) I said abused spouses sometimes visit terror upon their children and should fully apologise if given the chance without a ‘Yes, but’. Yet the abuser of the spouse is responsible also, and possibly more so. It’s very complex. Izzy knows he has done wrong and never lets on to the Crew. @MrsJellybee"

I agree it's complicated but the person who wrecks the havoc is very much more responsible than the person who is abusing them. There were many choices that could have been made instead, and the key word here is choice. They made me do it doesn't carry much weight with me as an excuse in real life or fiction, not when others are collateral damage as you say.

It's due to our own bias, the halo effect, that we are still rooting for Ed despite his actions. Perhaps other biases are at play too, if he was pig ugly would we still be making excuses for him?

The halo effect also blinds us to Stede's faults. Had he not got his arse handed to him by Zheng perhaps that selfish streak of his would have made him talk Ed into remaining a pirate beside him rather than becoming an Inn Keeper?

MrsJellybee · 26/08/2024 14:50

@2pence I bring a different weighting to fiction than reality. Art mirrors life. Ed’s a device and I can treat him as such. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on the Ed / Izzy dynamic and culpability. That’s the beauty of the show. We all sit along different lines and viewpoints. I don’t think we’re saying different things really, just saying them differently 🙂

Stede never really wanted to be a pirate. He thought he did because it was a way out of his previous life. It was a means to an end. Stede wanted to be fully human which is why we keep coming back to the Pinocchio story. Ed was never going to stay in piracy, and neither was Stede. Stede’s arse-kicking by Zheng which he provoked is a smaller version of Ed’s suicide in 2.2, just a more passive, less convincing attempt. Stede wants out too by this point.

2pence · 26/08/2024 17:08

I like the Pinocchio analogy @MrsJellybee, I'd not thought about the symbolism before. I always found it interesting that Mary and the kids were part of Stede's original pirate plan too. How much of the discomfort in his married state stemmed from the dismissal of Stede's dream I wonder (aside from being closeted or perhaps Demi-sexual)?

Agree that art imitates life and sadly vice versa, that's why diversity of opinion is so important. You know you're in a safe space ship when you can offer alternative viewpoints up for discussion 😊

CarterBeatsTheDevil · 26/08/2024 17:39

The series is about redemption and change, and it has the luxury of keeping some bits of the 16th century (general acceptance of violence and oppression as an occupational hazard) and mostly jettisoning others (racism, antitrans feeling, homophobia, but they all make an appearance when it drives the plot or makes a point). So all of the characters are lovable and also seriously terrible. But watching it, we have the luxury of letting stuff slide that in the real world that we live in would be a deal breaker.

BillStickersIsInnocent · 27/08/2024 13:00

True story.

Our Flag Means Death - Thread 4: Roll up, roll up! Come join us for more pirate obsession!
BillStickersIsInnocent · 27/08/2024 13:59

I’m rewatching series 1, it’s so good and funny.
And oh my I’m finding Stede sexy from 1.2! I thought I was immune until Calypso’s party but apparently not.

Phineyj · 27/08/2024 15:36

In Hunstanton, Norfolk playing Blackbeard- themed crazy golf.

Have some info boards to check for accuracy.

😂

Our Flag Means Death - Thread 4: Roll up, roll up! Come join us for more pirate obsession!
Our Flag Means Death - Thread 4: Roll up, roll up! Come join us for more pirate obsession!
Our Flag Means Death - Thread 4: Roll up, roll up! Come join us for more pirate obsession!
Phineyj · 27/08/2024 15:37

And the rest.

🏌‍♂️

Phineyj · 27/08/2024 15:38

Oops.

MrsJellybee · 27/08/2024 15:45

BillStickersIsInnocent · 27/08/2024 13:59

I’m rewatching series 1, it’s so good and funny.
And oh my I’m finding Stede sexy from 1.2! I thought I was immune until Calypso’s party but apparently not.

You’re one of us now… 😈 ❤️

(@TriceratopsRocks )

MrsJellybee · 27/08/2024 15:48

If you need a break from the fan-fic…

Our Flag Means Death - Thread 4: Roll up, roll up! Come join us for more pirate obsession!
BillStickersIsInnocent · 27/08/2024 17:40

MrsJellybee · 27/08/2024 15:48

If you need a break from the fan-fic…

I very much don’t! I’m awaiting several updates and have been re-reading too. Any good recommendations to tide me over please?

MrsJellybee · 27/08/2024 17:55

@BillStickersIsInnocent hmmm… I always feel like I’m behind everyone with the fan-fic, and you’ve possibly read anything I recommend. I will suggest this one just in case anyone hasn’t read it. https://archiveofourown.org/works/51456829/chapters/130038304

This is a very Ed-focused piece so if you prefer them together a lot and bonking, this might not be for you. I absolutely loved it, but Ed’s angst is briefly very bad (no suicidal ideation). What I loved was the found family and their role. Possibly one of my favourite Lucius iterations ever. Ed’s personal journey is beautiful. Stede is slightly underwritten, but still emotive and loveable. A little bitchy (lovely). Happy, happy ending. And beautiful setting. Left me wanting bonfires, warm jumpers, hot chocolate and cuddles.

you are at the top of my lungs - Chapter 1 - foxtails - Our Flag Means Death (TV) [Archive of Our Own]

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

https://archiveofourown.org/works/51456829/chapters/130038304

BillStickersIsInnocent · 27/08/2024 17:59

Thank you @MrsJellybee I haven’t read that one!