Immigration: An Inconvenient Truth

[expatinscotland]

is anyone watching?

Is it ever possible to discuss immigration in any way without the conversation being scaled down to 'You're a racist' or other platitudes?

I ask as an immigrant myself.

I'm just watching with interest.

Anyone?

Where is it on?

Ch 4

It's just an interesting subject to me, to see how some Brits see it, as I am an immigrant myself, though not an economic one.

I have noticed, however, that people aren't really allowed to express a counter-immigration viewpoint. They're usually immediately labelled narrow-minded, ignorant, bigoted or racist.

And I wonder why that is.

Everyone's opinion has validity, to themselves at least. And it does no good just to jump in and say, 'You're wrong.'

So I'm just watching this and try to listen.

Now we get to the crux of the new immigration: migrant workers.

I'd think that most people around the world are descended from immigrants of one sort or another . Anyone who expresses a counter-immigation idea can normally be expected to be asked if they're related to Enoch Powell which tends to shut most people up. It doesn't stop people thinking things though.

Btw I have spent the last week destroying BNP literature of which I am getting bombarded with. I would write to them to tell them to desist from mailing me but it's one less leaflet to go to someone else.

K, now he's going to talk to black British people in Brixton.

This should be interesting.

'Anyone who expresses a counter-immigation idea can normally be expected to be asked if they're related to Enoch Powell which tends to shut most people up.'

and it's not entirely fair, IMO.

i mean, isn't it important to listen to everyone's concerns? why is that not valid?

it is very rare for someone to put forward a counter-immigration argument without a hint of racism / xenophobia though, expat.

and when politicians do raise valid points in favour of stricter controls or whatever, they often are using it as code to all those racist voters out there.

I do agree that blindly calling anyone who doesn't like high levels of immigration a racist is unhelpful. but otoh, who exactly would you turn away?

(I say you, I mean they, obviously)

i don't agree, SP. it seems like nowadays, more and more people are questioning on the basis of money/finances rather than race.

the effect of the Eastern European migrant worker, for example.

and it's a valid discussion. in some areas, services have really struggled to cope.

and is xenophobia entirely wrong?

something one middle-class English man pointed that out on this show - is nationalism wrong? because he felt that it was, for him as an Englishman.

now i don't know how that feels, not being English.

but from a foreigner's point of view, it does seem that, in particular, people are embarrassed to be outspokenly nationalist, it's seen as automatically being BNP.

is this true?

why is this so?

It's not fair but if you cry racism it can distract from the arguments at hand so instead of having an adult debate about issues, one person or set of people are stopped from voicing their thoughts. It's not racist (IMO) to say that the UK is a fairly small place and you can't take an infinite number of people in for the rest of time. Immigration should be roughly pegged to the replacement rate between births-deaths-emigration or dependent on skill set. Genuine refugees from troubled places shouldn't be confused with migrant workers but they often are.

also, it's geographically not a very large place.

actually, yes, nationalism and xenophobia are always wrong. patriotism - being proud of your country - is fine, but automatically assuming that Mr A is a better man than Mr B because of his race or nationality is always wrong, yes.

and I have heard a lot of people moan about immigration in the context of doctors' lists etc. but the argument almost always goes "I can never get a doctor's appt now. it's because of all the bloody poles/asylum seekers/aliens". when patently the problem is not the immigrants themselves, but by the slowness with which the system reacts to changes in the number of people wanting medical attention(and usually the immigrants are only a small part of the problem - the main one being that our generation see the doc much more than our parents or grandparents did).

Even the current debate - with the Lords saying that actually migrants don't benefit the finances of the ordinary people very much, has been reported dishonestly. because you'll note that the report didn't say the people were disadvantaged - it just said the disadvantages outweighed the benefits. But it was reported in many places as saying that immigration is bad. also the solution - limiting immigration isn't really going to happen as we can't limit intra-EU immigration or asylum seekers. all we can do is boot out some of those americans and australians. is that really going to save the NHS?