Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Telly addicts

Related: Film discussion forum.

Original poster

Harold Shipman

72 replies

WillowSummerSloth · 30/09/2020 20:47

I'm just watching the 2nd episode. It's just a shocking, devastating story. One thing is puzzling me though - how did he get the diamorphine? I'm a GP and have no access to it and no need to access it. If I have a palliative patient, I prescribe morphine but the district nurse is the person that administers it. I can't even understand how he got this medication. He can hardly have stood in the pharmacy with a prescription in hand?! Was it different back then?

OP posts:
StylishMummy · 30/09/2020 20:54

I believe he made house calls and administered the drug in people's homes

BlackAmericanoNoSugar · 30/09/2020 20:57

Have they changed how the drug is controlled since he was administering it? Possibly even because of him?

HollowTalk · 30/09/2020 20:59

I've just watched all 3 episodes. I'm not sure about the diamorphine, but with the pethidine he was prescribing it for patients, then picking it up from the pharmacy for them. He was addicted to it himself in the early days.

FlitterMouse · 30/09/2020 20:59

that's an interesting point, GPs don't carry morphine now thanks to Shipman. What happens if you make a house call or a carehome visit and someone is in desperate need of analgesia, do you have to call the ambulance or district nurses to administer it after you've prescribed it. Its not always palliative patients that need strong painkillers, what happens to them if they are not known to the district nurses.

Lolaloveslemonade · 30/09/2020 21:01

Watching now. This tells you how he got it
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2005/feb/09/health.shipman

Lolaloveslemonade · 30/09/2020 21:03

He built up a stock
‘ Shipman obtained between February and August 1993.’
‘Over that period, Mrs Brant dispensed 14 prescriptions to Shipman for 30mg ampoules of diamorphine in the names of patients who did not need it.’

Lolaloveslemonade · 30/09/2020 21:07

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/shipman-had-enough-drugs-to-kill-720-1115659.amp

‘ On one occasion in June 1996, Shipman illegally obtained 12,000mgs of diamorphine by simply writing a single prescription for one patient who had already died.’

Lolaloveslemonade · 30/09/2020 21:09

‘ Shipman, who the inquiry has already established killed at least 215 of his patients, would pretend to prescribe diamorphine to his cancer sufferers when really he was keeping the drugs for himself to use to kill his victims.’

Standrewsschool · 30/09/2020 21:10

Haven’t watched this programme but have seen programmes about Shipman before. Fascinating.

Lolaloveslemonade · 30/09/2020 21:11

Rules must have changed. Seems like he did actually stand in the chemist with a prescription 😡

Ellapaella · 30/09/2020 21:12

Rules regarding controlled drugs changed after Harold Shipman was found guilty, it completely changed the way the system was run. The biography makes a fascinating read if you enjoy the TV series.

Lolaloveslemonade · 30/09/2020 21:15

Very Interesting flitter

Pixxie7 · 30/09/2020 21:19

Times have changed GP could go and get buy controlled drugs from a pharmacy. Before that he was taking px for pethidine to the chemist to feed a drug habit.

Original poster
WillowSummerSloth · 30/09/2020 21:25

It shows how far things have come. I couldn't even see a way he could get that medication. Even the district nurses, who have more access to the medication, are so heavily regulated with recording amounts given and ampoules used. It really is a truly horrific shocking story. I was also vaguely under the impression he was 'putting people out of their misery' sorry for the crude terminology but I thought he was hastening death for those patients who were dying. But it turns out these were elderly but mostly well, active people. It's a hard thing to get your head round.

OP posts:
Original poster
WillowSummerSloth · 30/09/2020 21:30

To answer the question above about pain : if someone was in pain and housebound, I would ask the district nurses to go round and administer. However if the person is tolerating oral medicines, usually I can send a prescription to the pharmacy and they or a relative could collect. If they are in acute, severe pain I think I would suggest A&E. I've never had access to any medication even when in hospital. I prescribe it but it's always my nursing colleagues that give it.

OP posts:
Original poster
WillowSummerSloth · 30/09/2020 21:31

Anaesthetists have access to more medication as they administer the anaesthetics etc. But other than that I don't think medics have much contact with the actual medicine.

OP posts:
Katinski · 30/09/2020 22:32

So, that programme, was there no background to his home life? I thought he had a wife and a few children? Anyone know? Oh, and how did he die - natural causes or what?

CaptainInsensible · 30/09/2020 22:38

Can we just make it clear that district nurses are NOT travelling around with a load of Diamorphine in their cars!
It would be prescribed by the GP, then either a family member would collect from the pharmacy, or the pharmacy would deliver to the house. Then the nurses would be able to administer it. Rarely, the nurse might collect from pharmacy and then take straight to the specific patient’s house, but only if no one else was able to collect and the patient needed it immediately.

CaptainInsensible · 30/09/2020 22:42

In the case of shipman, he also used to offer to dispose of diamorphine left in patients’ houses after they had died.
I think if I remember rightly the district nurses were criticised for allowing him to do this and not questioning it.
Nowadays the drugs have to be disposed of by 2 nurses and counted in and out, documented etc. If any were missing, the police would be called.

HollowTalk · 30/09/2020 23:28

@Katinski

So, that programme, was there no background to his home life? I thought he had a wife and a few children? Anyone know? Oh, and how did he die - natural causes or what?
They made it clear it was a programme about the victims, not about Shipman.
Graphista · 30/09/2020 23:29

I was a nurse in elderly care back when he was operating. It was a LOT more lax then from what I remember.

I remember an incident where medication of this type went missing once in a facility I was working in, (nothing to do with me) there was a brief "investigation" but basically it was brushed off as "must've been accidentally thrown away" from what ex colleagues tell me that wouldn't happen now!

Initially it was thought he was an "angel of mercy" killer but as more came out it became clear that wasn't the truth, after that the motive was then thought to be financial but that also turned out to be secondary to the reality which seems to have been he simply liked having that control, that power over mostly elderly women's lives/deaths. He got a kick out of it - so a "big standard" sick bastard serial killer.

But due to the nature of his job and the lax procedures at the time he was able to be one of the most prolific in modern history. Mainly I think as he "hid in plain sight" as he was able to have the bodies disposed of relatively normally rather than the difficulty other serial killers have that they need to hide the bodies.

I remember even as he went to trial a lot of people still believed he was "misunderstood angel of mercy" - but no widely used internet then

MyBeloved · 30/09/2020 23:29

Chilling, and so sad.

Graphista · 30/09/2020 23:30
  • ugh BOG standard that should say
ineedaholidaynow · 30/09/2020 23:32

He killed himself