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Telly addicts

Leonard Cohen and Marianne Ihlen BBC doc

12 replies

absopugginglutely · 01/10/2019 12:05

I’m heartbroken after watching this, I felt so sad for everyone involved (maybe not Cohen!)
Beautiful beautiful documentary made with such love and tenderness.
Cohens songs are so much more poignant now!
Hi

10/10

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thegreylady · 02/10/2019 09:03

I watched it too. I always loved Cohen’s songs but didn’t realise the odd life he led. I have been Googling to find out what happened to little Axel and it seems so sad, after the idyllic childhood on Hydra ,that he has spent most of his life in a psychiatric hospital.
I found the whole programme intensely moving and rather disappointing, when one realises how flawed Cohen was as a person.
His comeback, that brave old man with so much of the charisma intact, was almost unbearable as were the scenes from Marianne’s deathbed.

absopugginglutely · 02/10/2019 12:25

Yes. I have always (been attracted to but) stayed away from men who idolised and put women on a pedestal to protect myself from a life like Marriane's and I will warn my daughter to do the same.

Equal footing as flawed human beings is a good trajectory and foundation and not being worshipped and sung about until you get a bit older/ real life kicks in.

Cohen, like so many brilliant artists was from a privileged upbringing so had the inbuilt fearlessness that this brings and couldn't see very well how his behaviour was affecting/hurting others.

I don't think it's black and white though, he was still probably warm, generous, beautiful, loving and fun to be around. But the interplay between him and Marianne was a formula that you do see amongst bohemian/ hedonistic/ art-as-God circles.

I felt for Marianne because it was Axel's father who gave him LSD as a 15 year old and he was put into an asylum from that day onwards. A beautiful young brainy boy completely mentally obliterated by his careless father. She spent her whole life in remorse.

Tragic.

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stumbledin · 06/10/2019 00:41

I watched this after seeing this thread, being old enough to have been to his early concerts and bought a couple of LPs but lost interest after some stories started circulating about him.

But by the end of this documentary I was totally out raged and will never hear his songs with any sympathy what so ever.

What a complete and utter self absorbed arrogant male shit.

And as said above, typical of that time (and probably still now) that a man who makes a huge performance of being a suffering artiste is allowed to behave with total disregard for others, but particularly women.

And all those who colluded with this and enabled his exploitative material.

It wasn't a love story, it was the story of a vulnerable woman fleeing violence fall into a traditional role of unpaid skivvy because she felt she had not real alternatives.

Not one person in the film gave any indication of her character but seem to use her as a blank canvas they projected their ideas onto, even the film maker was doing this, whilst casually letting slip she made him aware of protest music and using film to expose housing conditions.

All those interviewed had totally bought into this suffering male genius cliche and somehow made the women responsible for what happened. eg Suzanne (not given any right of reply) was this predatory monster who took poor hapless Cohen away from Marianne (he didn't even get her name right FFS) and evicted her and young Axel from their home.

This was just one long male wet dream about women who fulfil their feminine essence by dedicating themselves to worthy men. Cohen was in no way feminist as one contributor tried to claim but held moronically outdated ideas about masculine and feminine roles.

I think the loathsome roadie was probably a more accurate reflextion of the life style. He didn't dress it up in contrived artistic sentiments.

I hated that they filmed her near to death. And that (how will this look to the public) message that he sent her.

Even her mother didn't respect her wanting to accept her lot in life as a secretary.

Why didn't the film maker help her find her dreams, instead on helping with the torture of pleasing Cohen, it getting an abortion, dumping young Axel in a boarding school.

And how can anyone idolise an artistic community that put acid in children's drinks, led to one family's total destruction.

A real pity the film maker didn't remove his myth making view point and try and understand why something that seemed on the surface idylic was actually poisonous.

Is it any wonder that in fact the start of the Women's Liberation Movement was not as packaged history puts forward as some sort of university inspired idea, but came from the huge number of women who bought into the hippy dream and very quickly realised it was little more than a men's rights movement where they were mean to provide sex and cups of teas to pretentious men.

Anyway I could rant all night about this, but am truely shocked that in this day and age of supposed more awareness of male destructive behaviour that anyone would think that could dish out this reactionary male myth making.

I can only hope young women growing up today are more clued up that those bought up in the 50s and exploited in the 60s.

Moanranger · 06/10/2019 22:47

The sheer quantity of drugs amazed me. I was a teen in the ‘60s so certainly familiar with them, but LC wrote almost continuously on speed, regularly performed on acid, heroin commonplace on Hydra (Greek island) It was a wonder that any of them were remotely functional.

Dontgobacktorockville · 06/10/2019 22:52

I loved the song So long Marianne, but watching this has really tarnished my view of Leonard Cohen. Hydra sounded like an idyll at first, but then a kind of hell for so many who lived there. And being a muse just leaves women in a completely powerless position

ladyme · 06/10/2019 22:59

@stumbledin

I am so relieved to hear someone else had the same reaction I did to this film.

We went to see it at an artsy cinema showing a few months ago and I'm not Fucking joking I was absolutely LIVID by the end of the film Angry my jaw was clenched so hard it hurt. Meanwhile my husband was wiping away tears "but she was his muuuuusssswe" "oh, fuck off!"

Took about half an hour to walk home with me ranting and him thinking I was being insane. I don't think I've ever reacted so strongly to a film before.

Loved Cohen before. Think he's a cunt now.

stumbledin · 07/10/2019 00:43

Yes ladyme - had to restrain myself in my post otherwise I would have just gone on and on.

And unfortunately aspects of it keep popping into my mind and I start to seethe all over again.

I think it was the bragging about Janis Joplin that became public knowledge at the time that made me switch off from him. So horrible. She was treated so badly by so many people and he just turns her into this one night stand who he doesn't really remember other than that she was famous, so now he can write a song about her.

I saw her quite by chance the one time she performed in London. I didnt really now anything about her but left the concert a changed woman.

But just one thing. He was not a c*t. He was a predatory exploiter of women's c*nts.

But he was a complete wanker, a selfish prick, a boarish narcissist, and deeply entrenched in patriarchy.

Its horrible to think that so many women are still being conditioned into thinking that to be the chosen sex playmate of a famous man is something to aspire to.

stumbledin · 07/10/2019 20:10

Seems to me this journalist should have credited mumsnet tellyaddicts for helping her write this review of the documentary!

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/sympathy-for-muses-as-idols-fall-from-grace-mwgf9vlgr

CuteOrangeElephant · 07/10/2019 22:29

I really want to watch this, but I am also torn because his concert was one of the best I have been to...

thegreylady · 07/10/2019 23:56

There was very little music in the film just odd snatches here and there. It dint make for easy watching. It was interesting to read the two versions of Cohen’s final message to Marianne.

Leonard Cohen and Marianne Ihlen BBC doc
Leonard Cohen and Marianne Ihlen BBC doc
stumbledin · 08/10/2019 19:00

CuteOrangeElephant

If you mean that because you really enjoyed one of his concerts you would prefer not to know about the actual personal behind the stage persona, then give it a miss.

But obviously not everyone who has watched it thought he was a self aggrandising male shit!

Or they just think this is always the case with famous people. Other people who want to be touched by the fame let them behave badly.

absopugginglutely · 09/10/2019 09:27

It’s really interesting reading your comments on this.
I know what you mean about the poet’s emotions trumping everyone else’s and how selfish that is.
It’s also worth remembering that people who are taking loads of drugs and indulging their senses in every possible way are stunting their maturation process by numbing themselves to how they’re making others feel so no one is expecting that to only have an “up” side.

It’s all fun and games until it isn’t.

Maybe it was Marrianes lesson to learn to see that he “just wasn’t that into her”
She may have had her own rescuer tendencies and was probably feeling that being a single mum in the sixties with an interesting bohemian set on a beautiful island was far preferable to being a vulnerable single mum in Oslo, living a mundane life raising her son without all the fun and frolics that Hydra brought.

What 20/30 year old is making perfect choices all of the time?

Why do we expect artists/successful people to be saintly?

It was sad for Marriane in the way that life’s always sadder for women because they’re constrained financially and emotionally by child rearing in a way that just isn’t /wasn’t expected from men.

I still think they had a beautiful time. Apparently not one contributor wanted to be paid for their contribution to the film which I think says a lot about the fondness they had for both L and M. The documentary maker said that on the Witney documentary he made, literally everyone’s first question was how much are you going to pay me.

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