His Dark Materials

[AllGoodDogs]

New BBC adaptation, looks so good, can't wait trailer here -

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10162256439035553&id=683285552&sfnsn=mo

What a non-episode.

They should have had a scene in Bolvanger of kids being cut, interspersed with Lyra finding Billy to fully underline the horror of what he had undergone. How could someone who had not read the book get the importance when they’ve done so little with dæmons? Too many dogs and cats making them look like pets, and Mrs Coulter didn’t even get on with hers. The only real relationship was last episode with Lee and Hester.

And Billy should have had the fish, that bit was heartbreaking

I reread the books before this and even worse, read them in order - la belle sauvage, then the original trilogy then the secret commonwealth. Then I had withdrawal symptoms and read the collectors, one of the short stories. It’s about a portrait of a young mrs coulter and a bronze of her daemon, but they’re in our world. The titular collectors discuss them and one plot point that I’d not picked up on before was the explicit information that Mrs coulter visited our world as a young woman, sat for the painting and was suspected to have been on a diplomatic mission.

With the focus on Mrs coulters family in the secret commonwealth, I wonder if it will come up in either the next book, or during this adaptation?

It’s a potential reason why she and her daemon can separate?

Also, in the book didn't she meet some villagers before she actually found him? Pretty sure their reactions contributed to the horror and tragedy of it.

I think so. As far as I can remember they were so horrified they wouldn’t go near him.

Cakeweek, totally agree. You can’t appreciate the true horror of what’s happening at Bolvangar if you haven’t properly understood what a daemon is. And they haven’t set that up properly at all. I don’t think it’s the lack of CGI daemons either, it’s the writing.

They’ve already got boreal travelling back and forth between our world and Lyra’s I think they’ve missed a huge opportunity to make it clear.

You can’t appreciate the true horror of what’s happening at Bolvangar if you haven’t properly understood what a daemon is.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Last night just didn't have the same impact as the book, because the audience haven't been shown the importance of the Daemons. The moment with the dead fish has stuck with me for over a decade, where as this was easily forgettable.

The horror of the separation, and the abhorrent act that is being committed by those in Bolvanger is integral to the story, but this hasn't come across from the TV series at all.

Hello, I've been lurking. I just wanted to say I haven't read the books but I totally got the horror and abhorrence of what they are doing from last night's episode. I will read the books, but I think I'll wait until the end of the series now.
I was looking forward to watching this, but I nearly stopped after episode 1. I'm so glad I didn't.

Can I ask how old you were when you read the books? I've bought the trilogy for my 11 year old niece for Christmas. She's a real book lover but is 11 too young for the themes?

I've read Northern lights and Will isn't in that as far as I remember. Are they smudging end of N L with beginning of TAS?

No 11 isn't too young IMO. I read the books at that age and loved them.

The moment with the dead fish has stuck with me for over a decade, where as this was easily forgettable.

I think that this was more of a cock up than the absence of the daemons to this episode to be fair.

I get them making it Billy instead of Tony (though i'd have left it personally). But he should have been alert, they should have had the fishermen showing their fear, AND HE SHOULD HAVE HAD THE FISH.

Tony Makarios clutching to his fish and asking for his Ratter was the second most horrifying thing that happened in all three books. And as said upthread, Lyra going absolutely ballistic at the men for stealing his fish and laughing about it was one of her best moments!

And the fact that one of the fishermen tried to make Lyra pay them for Tony's fish... I would have loved to have seen this Lyra's horrified reaction to that. She's doing a good job, getting better each week.

@Felicitycity yes it seems that way, if you read through this whole thread it's been discussed quite a bit

Sorry, I'm not going to read the whole thread to see if this has been answered already...
In which order should I read all the books please? TIA

Read them in the order they were published so the original His Dark Materials trilogy: Northern Lights, The Subtle Knife, and The Amber Spyglass then The Book of Dust trilogy: La Belle Sauvage, The Secret Commonwealth (and the third isn't published). There are some short stories as well that were written after HDM but before TBOD: Lyra's Oxford and Once Upon a Time in the North. @Leaningtoweroflisa , when was The Collectors published?

Agree with you all about the ghost child.

Quite enjoying the appearance of Will so early now I've got used to it, although his house was much nicer than I imagined (not exactly a subsistence income!) and knowing what is to come makes his Mum seem not so delusional after all whereas when I read it I assumed she was imagining the people watching them whereas it looks like her husband has warned her what was going to happen.

@Cakeweek and anyone else who saw the production at the National Theatre in 2003/4.

Can you remember how they dealt with the Tony Makarios/ghost child/holding dead fish instead of daemon bit?

I've got a memory of Russell Tovey possibly doing that bit (memories of him having "hollow" zombie-like make up), but he is listed in the wiki entry as playing Roger.

It seems that the National Theatre production also did away with the Tony Makarios character, but there are cast listings for Billy Costa and Tony Costa.

It's a very, very long time since I read the books (early 2000s) so I might be misremembering things from the book as well.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials_(play)

I’m in 2 minds about the fish. There’s a lot of mention about his death not being horrifying enough, but remember this is broadcast at 8pm, so there’s only so far they can take things.
I’m watching this now as it’s own piece of work rather than comparing to the book, and enjoying it much more.

Since we're discussing the other books (I mean The Book of Dust books and Lyra's Oxford) do people recommend them, should I put them on my Christmas list?!

The book is a children’s book though so if that can have the fish in, I’m not sure why they’d cut it from the show. Dr Who in a similar slot can be quit hard-hitting.

It downplays Lyra’s bravery too - she was scared going into the hut, but it really wasn’t clear that what she found in the hut was scary (a child with no dæmon) and wasn’t ‘just’ Billy. And yet she got over that fear to bring him back.

Thanks @CountFosco

Lyra had to overcome a deep-seated feeling of disgust and fear to even be able to touch the boy with no daemon, and yet her compassion and pity won over so she could do the right thing. It's an important bit of character development, really, and it's a shame they didn't make as much of it as they could have done.

@Wiltedplant Russell Tobey was definitely Roger and I've gone through the cast list in The Art of Darkness and there's no other children listed. I reckon Tony could have been played by one of the company. I think, I remember a little hut onstage. But nothing else.

What strikes me when thinking back to that adaptation is how crucial the daemons were - the puppetry was astounding and the relationships so crucial.

How strict are we being on spoilers before I type anymore, because I was thinking about a part from the Amber spyglass but don't want to spoil for anyone who's not read ahead/ at all.

*Tovey

I must say my attention is wandering at times. Agree they have not made it clear about the daemons. @Cakeweek, do you mean the part where Lyra and Pan have to do something very painful? I properly cried at that.

@TildaKauskumholm yep, then. 😭

I agree about the fish.

I am NOT HAPPY about Will being left off the publicity photo for the series. He should have had equal billing with Lyra.

But. My god that was good. Magnificent. Will and his mother took it to a whole ‘nother level. I am utterly, spellbindingly grateful that they cast those two people in those roles. I didn’t think it was possible to love Will more than I already did - but someone very clever conceptualised the environment he lived in. (OMG - I’ve just realised - that beautiful modernist house and his school and the pacing remind me strongly of ... Ultraviolet. Than which there will never be a more compelling TV series.) Amazing, amazing ...

And it’s so breathtaking to watch Lyra and Will moving towards each other from such un-like worlds.

Also. When I Die And Come Back I Will Look Exactly Like Serafina.

Will and his mother took it to a whole ‘nother level. I am utterly, spellbindingly grateful that they cast those two people in those . I didn’t think it was possible to love Will more than I already did - but someone very clever conceptualised the environment he lived in

Yes, Will and his Mum were perfect.