Louie Theroux Transgender Kids

[dancemom]

Is anyone else watching this?

I think one of the things that bothers me so much about this program is the idea that so much is gender specific.
Have we come nowhere in the last 50 years? If we were better at making all activities gender neutral, open to all, then the freedom to be a boyish girl or a girly boy would allow kids much more space to explore who they are

I found it very difficult to watch, a 5 year old who says they are transgender? I find that hard to comprehend

Step I thought the same, especially looking at Sebastian's baby photos. They were talking about how s/he was so different - it really shouldn't be necessary for a child to be obviously a boy or girl from their appearance in photos at such a young age. Maybe if society didn't promote such rigid gender norms for kids then the ones who feel uncertain would just be able to feel that way, without it being a problem to be solved with hormones or surgery.

I wondered whether it was easier for the parents of five year old Camille to think if him/her as 'transgender' then as a boy who likes sparkly dresses, Lady GaGa and twirling. Perhaps the medical explanation was more palatable for them than the idea that their boy is building an male identity for himself that is unconventional.

I think you have hit the nail on the head Ubik.

At the same time, I do know that many people 'knew' from a very early age that they were different and went on to identify as transgender, or as gay, and so I wouldn't want to say Camille is or isn't. I just think that he/she doesn't have a space to be a boy in a dress, he is immediately categorized as trans.

All the children are going to have years of therapy before anything permanent happens. Hormone blockers DELAY the permanent irreversible changes of puberty.

What do 5-year-olds know about gender to be taken seriously when asserting they are transgender? That sounds nuts.

I can't help thinking that if these kids had been born into a society (in the US) where gender roles weren't so rigidly and commercially delineated along strict girl/boy (pink/blue) lines, they would have just been free to be kids for awhile before being forced to label themselves as transgender. And then maybe to just be effeminate men/masculine women or gay men. It seems to be all about the clothes, make up, pop stars rather than sex and gender.

I was shocked by her language. Very eloquent for a four year old. The parents had only known for afew months themselves yet that little girl knew all the lingo. It's like they had ran out to wool mart and bought as much pink sparkly shite as they could carry.

yes and all the stuff they were discussing in front of her, she was overhearing it all - my kids wouldn't have heard incessant discussion about gender, girl, boy etc - I just let them dress up in whatever they wanted. It must have an effect on impressionable 5 year olds.

My DD used to think she would grew up to be a bit (just like DS) when she was older. She was about 3 or 4 when I sadly disillusioned her. She then happened to meet a real tomboy of a girl, and latched onto the identity of being a tomboy, which she was OK about. She's dropped that now and is quite comfy as a girl.

I do think it's harder for boys who are "girly" There's no socially acceptable male version of a tomboy for them to be

But shocking that children that young aren't simply reassured that they're fine as they are and girls and boys can do all the same things

I think you are right Ubik.

dd had friends at that age who as little boys loved tutus and pushchairs. dd loved trains and cars and had many imaginary friends They were playing having fun and exploring and just simply being who they are. At that age they believe in fairies and unicorns and the world is a plastic (in the malleable sense) place where things are what you want them to be.

just to young to know who you are.

Grow up to be a boy obviously (not a bit!)

I knew a boy just like that who at 3/4/5/6 walked around in a tutu, loved singing and dancing and was very trad girly. He was particularly effeminate, even in his speech. I always assumed he would grow up to be a gay man. I bumped into him recently at 15, after not having seen him since that age, and he was a very typical, monosyllabic, rugby playing male teen. Absolutely standard "boy".

I think you've hit the nail on the head about the plasticity. Gender isn't (or shouldn't be important) prepuberty and its for to be normal for it to be a bit more fluid in young children. These adults are forcing the kids hands way too early IMO.

I was a real "tomboy" as a kid. Dressed in boys clothes, played football, played with action men and toy trains. Out climbing trees. Of course there's no reason why girls can't do that stuff but I never had any interest in dresses, dolls.....

If anyone had asked me when I was 5 or 6 if I wanted to be a boy I may well have said yes. In my child's view of the world with older brothers and male cousins it was boys who had all the fun and I wanted to be like them. Growing up in the 70s was quite eye opening even for a small child that boys had more opportunities open to them, etc so it could have been more appealing.

Thankfully nobody ever asked me.

If they had asked you, you would have had lots of counselling and possibly REVERSIBLE hormone blockers until you were 18 when you were better able to make choices.

The hormones may be "reversible" in that once you stop them puberty begins. But the impact on your emotional and social development of not going through puberty with your peers might not be.

Nikki wasn't 18, she was 14 and already transitioning. Even though she only watched the programme about being transgender with her mum when she was 13. So no years of therapy there.

Camille seemed to come across as a fabulous boy.

Crystal/Cole seemed to be pulled in two directions by their separated parents. Their decision about what gender they really are is going to be made harder by it being tied up with choosing sides.

which would have been unecessary in my case as i stopped actively wanting to be a boy naturally at about 7/8. I think I would have been pretty annoyed as a teenager actually if i didnt go through puberty with everyone else at the normal age because my parents had put me on hormone blockers when I was a child. I think that would have made puberty harder for me.

But this is only my experience and I dont think wanting to be a boy briefly as a kid (because it looked more fun) is the same as the body dysmorphia that many TG teens described on the program (the younger kids didn't, to me) - which must be incredibly difficult. It just worries me that both these cases are being treated in the same way here and decisions and surgeries being performed at a very young age, before it is clear whether it is a temporary "phase" or indeed, just part of their character as the gender they were born as.

Crystal/Cole in particular seemed to me to be a normal, effeminate boy and did'nt seem to have any actual TG feelings at all. I suspect if he hadnt been given the idea by the adults in his life he would have just been happy to be the type of boy he was. You cant help feeling that the mother labels him as TG as this makes it easier to deal with the very traditional and conservative father for whom it is actually more palatable than having an effeminate son, who may possibly grow up to be a gay man.

I found this really interesting. The black man whom they interviewed as an adult was very moving and I liked the doctor working with him.

I really wasn't convinced of the ethics of filming Crystal/Cole. It felt as if they were asking him/her to choose between parents in public. Lovely child, but it didn't seem right to me. I was also quite shocked that, when Nicky's parents were talking about how children at her school bullied her and said she was gay, there was no voiceover comment to condemn that. Obviously the bullying itself was condemned, but I think if you are making a documentary, you have a responsibility to say something at that point to stress that, if she had been a gay male teenager, that wouldn't make it ok to bully her!

tiggy, can I ask, do you know something we don't about the filming? I did get that it must be leaving out all sorts of things, and it is presumably partly trying to give a snapshot, but the 14 year old who had had the mastectomy surgery seemed to be saying his dysphoria only kicked in a year before, when he started developing breasts. So presumably no years of counselling, and I don't think you can reverse a mastectomy? I mean, you can aesthetically, but can you functionally?

This was something that bothered me about the woman doctor too. Maybe they just didn't give her time to explain, but I found her quite evasive and couldn't help thinking yes, she's getting paid for all of this isn't she? I found her emphasis quite disturbing: children get depressed and attempt suicide because they're getting bullied, therefore, I will help them change themselves. There seemed to be no room to say what the other doctor was saying about finding your own preferences.

Very interesting, though, much more so than I thought it would be.

TiggyOBE Sun 05-Apr-15 22:41:45
All the children are going to have years of therapy before anything permanent happens.

I'm sorry, but I still have a major problem with this as its done within the framework and context of 'something being wrong' and the way the parents treat the child at home during this period could have a significant effect on what the child says and does during this period.

Someone upthread pointed out that Sebastian like traditionally girly things and was saying he was a girl because of the parents strict black and white interpretation of how a girl/boy should behave and I think that just about sums it up for me.

There is too much risk of children saying or behaving in a certain way to please the parents (or perhaps to upset the parents and get attention). Don't underestimate the effect of parents saying "you should have been a boy/girl" to a young child.

If children are not deemed able to know and understand the difference between right and wrong under law then how can they make decisions like this?

I do have more sympathy for the teens shown, but even then I was still saying I hated being a girl until my early twenties because I found certain things difficult as I was a Tomboy and I think I was very aware of inequalities facing women and didn't like it.

I look back and do think I would have been too immature to have made such decisions about my gender and sexuality at that age.

FWIW, I think the suicide thing is a bit misleading as it suggests that transitioning stops the suicidal thoughts. Unfortunately many adults who have transitioned find it doesn't prove to be the utopia they were hoping for and struggle with it, with some trying to change back. Suicides are still common after transition. I do think the programme failed to mention that quite significant issue.

I haven't watched this yet, but I think it's really important to be critical of the rising idea of transgender children. Only a small percentage of children who identify as trans will go on to become trans adults and I think we should be very, very mindful of the damage that could be caused by delying puberty and of needless surgery.

Also find it interesting how welcoming of the idea of a transchild some ultra conservative people are vs the alternative of a child who seems to them too camp for a boy/ not girly enough for a girl... Especially amongst those who are very anti-gay.

I think I would have been happy to be a boy instead until I was about 15/16 and had got used to having periods and potentially babies etc, which I was terrified of for years.

Going through puberty was definitely part of the process of becoming y'at peace' with the gender I was born, definitely. So I am very much on the fence about puberty blockers.