Inside Fathers 4 Justice - 8PM ITV

[Caligula]

On now! Looks very interesting.

I do have every sympathy with their cause. My b-i-l is going through a messy divorce atm. His wife simply told him to leave one day - he has no idea why, they'd been going to Relate but he thought everything was ok, they went out together, etc etc. She told him that if he didn't get out of his house within 2 weeks she'd take the children away. He loves his kids more than anything, so he moved back in with his parents. She now dictates when and if he sees his children. She tells them nasty things about him. She uses them to get her own way, demanding money to go on holiday or he won't see them, etc. She is demanding half his business which he started before he met her and has built from nothing, she wants the house, there is no end to her list of demands. He is convinced that once the divorce is through, she'll move away and he'll never see the kids. She finishes her design degree next year so this is very possible. If she does move he really doesn't have a leg to stand on. The court can grant custody but it is up to the parents to make sure it is kept. The mother can walk all over it and there is nothing anyone can do. He is very frustrated and heartbroken over everything. I should imagine that these fathers feel the same way.

some singularlt nasty people involed in 'direct action' it would seem.

Frankly is their boasting about violence, sexism,and racism is anything to go by, I'd try to block kids from seeing them too.

Whilst I realise that many men have real claims agains the system the men on this probelm were horrific, and if, god forbid, I had been married to someone like them I would try my damndest to make sure my kids never saw them.

I was particularly taken by the man who had got visitation right by beating up his wife's boy friend and then theatening to kill her if she didm't give him access. He was the charmer who said that 'every white man should own a few black men and that balck men could be emptied out and used for diving'. Sociopath!

Must admit, couldn't watch the prog, not over here. Shame that what could be a good cause, has turned into an excuse to be violent and act like thugs. I'm sure they could have a very good legal argument and could actually benefit a lot of fathers out there who are being denied their legal rights. But as usual the minority of thickos spoil everything. Or perhaps those are just the bits the programme makers wanted to show?

Having some inside knowledge of programmes, I know that they can shoot 150 hours for one hour of television. With all that footage, they can either make you likeable, or make you look like a complete twat. But I didn't see the prog so cannot say.

OMG, some of them are so unutterably vile. But the undercover report admits that some of the men are nice and decent and have real problems...but the organisation seems to be led by monsters. Very sad all round, for the women, the decent men and the children.

The National Association of Probabation Officers recently published a report into whether fathers were getting a raw deal from the courts. Actually found fathers denied access by the courts were either a. violent. b. substance abusers (alcohol included) or c. unreliable - as in failing to turn up, letting kids down. So-called discrimination against fathers is being used as a respectable excuse by dads who can't be bothered to see or support their children. It's much more socially acceptable to blame the evil court or wicked ex-wife than to admit they are crap.

And FFJ is full of wife-beaters who hate the fact that their exes and their children have dared to escape and are seeking to regain control so they can carry out child abuse.

True, but the people in this were so violent and misogenistic it wouldn't have taken much 'cutting' I can tell you!

It was the guy who calmly described how he had broken his ex wife's nose in an altercation.

members of F4J bosting about vandalism and criminal damage.

One man describing CAFCASS and stating that he wated to 'Cut the Bitch's face up, slash her with a stanley knife'....he was talking about a CAFCASS officer....they guy needed locking up

I agree. Just thought I'd mention that the undercover reporter did say that he'd met decent men with real and honest grievances too, though I can see why the programme went with the absolute monsters instead. In the case of those individuals, they are absolutely vile people in every way and I personally think their children need protecting from them and the courts are doing a good job.

Agree, and nutters like this do nothing for the rights of the good fathers who deserve access

Sadly the courts don't always do enough to protect women and children from violent men. There are cases where mothers and children have been killed due to orders allowing violent men contact. And yet FFJ has managed to convinced the world the real problem is scheming women and biased courts!

Couldn't agree more Martianbishop.

Rhubarb, I think in the case of F4J it's not so much a good cause being used as an excuse for violence and thuggishness, it's violence and thuggery being the main aim and justified by a convenient good cause.

Of course the programme was biased, but it needed to be - there is so much of the other side's propaganda out there, which is so much more welcomed by a mysogynist society than the banal reality, which is that 90% of separated couples sort out their differences without ever needing to go near a court, and that where contact problems do occur, it's generally resident parents complaining that absent parents don't prioritise their contact visits. That's just not as heartrending or exciting a story as twisted embittered women using their children as weapons - not so marketable. It really struck me when the bloke from Cafcass pointed out that of all the cases that come before them each year, less than 1% of fathers are forbidden to see their children. (Was it 0.8%?) And considering how widespread domestic abuse is, the fact that only 0.8% of fathers are being stopped from seeing their kids, shows how Cafcass actually bend over backwards to let even the most unsuitable fathers have contact (though some of it not sole, of course, which enrages them as it takes away control, and the whole point of contact for such abusers is as a furtherance of their control agenda).

What about telling Jodie Dunn's daughter that her mother was a child abuser

ive always thought they were t*ats, no surprise that i have proved myself right.

It'll be interesting to see the excuses F4J come up with to explain this away. What a vile bunch.

But Edam, the courts cannot enforce such an order, as proved every day by the mothers who deny decent dads access. My b-i-l's ex can take the kids away and deny him access and there is little he could do about it. They can issue summons, but these things are so slow, the mothers let the dads have access for a while and then it's back to Square One and the courts again.

Of course some dads don't deserve access, but not all are like this. The system is unfair in lots of ways.

Agree, the system is very obviously not working for those couples who do have problems.

There is so much focus on the fact that mothers who want to deny access can do so too easily, and there is talk of "getting tough" with them, sending them to prison, making them do community service, etc.

What I want to know is, when is F4J, or even anyone respectable and decent, going to start talking about "getting tough" with the far greater number of fathers who don't turn up for their contact visits, or turn up two hours late, or bring the kids back two hours late, on an habitual and wilful basis?

If contact with the absent father is so important, why is it only enforced when fathers want it to be? Why are mothers who complain about fathers not bothering to visit or contact their children, ignored? It seems to me that this is a very one-sided debate. Either contact is important, or it's not. If it's important, then reluctant fathers (of whom there are surprisingly many) should be forced to see their children.

I can't see many men shinning up poles in costumes for that, though.

totally agree with caligula