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Telly addicts

The Classroom Experiment

155 replies

diddl · 28/09/2010 07:56

Anyone else see this last night?

Thought it was quite interesting.

Did no one else go to a school where pupils were asked questions throughout a lesson without anyone putting their hand up?

Or you might get asked even if your hand wasn´t up?

Can´t believe that they are talking about it as if it´s revolutionary!

Do teachers really only engage with the same few without involving others?

OP posts:
invisibleink · 28/09/2010 19:50

Emily now has a bit of a f off attitude now as she isnt the 'top dog' and centre of attention!!

invisibleink · 28/09/2010 19:52

Also, missed the start - who took their sticks out?

invisibleink · 28/09/2010 19:59

English and maths improved..English they used the techniques well and in maths, the teacher had that conference with the students and realised the class wasnt keeping up and changed her methods.

Science admitted he didnt use them. And the grades didnt improve there so hmmmmmmmmmm..

Also what do you think of the comments no grades thing?

bulby · 28/09/2010 20:00

Sorry but programmes on tv like this really annoy me. The vast majority of teachers have been using these methods for years and years ( one or two have been and gone). But the thing that really gets me is the 'i went to school once' authority with which everyone speaks. By the way Dylan can you explain to ofsted why my pupils have not been able to keep track of their grades because you've decided I'm no longer allowed to share this info with them.
Kids the best way to have fun with your whiteboards is to sit at the front and write rude messages on the back!

invisibleink · 28/09/2010 20:03

Bulby - Are you in Herts? They said at the end they were thinking of rolling out these things across the county - has this now happened?

diddl · 28/09/2010 20:05

The school mine are at don´t give grades for the first 2yrs.

It´s pretty easy from comments to see how they are doing!

OP posts:
claig · 28/09/2010 20:12

God help us. If my DS doesn't pass the 11+ and get into grammar, I'm going to have to save up for private school fees. There is no way my DS is going to a school influenced by Professor Dylan, the profesoor of dumbing down.

Comments not grades, that sums up the collectivist anti-competition progressive philosophy. Failure masked as success by feel good comments and no grades to prove what level they are at. The highfliers became disruptive and their behaviour deteriorated because there is no point in them performing as they no longer feel that they get any individual rewards. The only reward is the Alton Towers collectivist reward. That will work in the short term but will wear off in the long term, and the top performers will be levelled down.

There were positive aspects such as an increase in confidence of the lower achievers, but this could be obtained in other ways without impacting negatively on the high performers. One child admitted that with the mini whiteboards he could now copy off of the clever kids, whereas before he couldn't. Dylan will probably soon change the exam system so that exams are done via mini whiteboards and teacher assessment alone, with the result that copying will be rife.

Professor Dylan had trouble understanding why kids didn't want to be seen to get things wrong. He doesn't understand the competitive spirit (and in fact wants to eliminate as all progressives want to do) and how they could be embarrassed by showing that they do not know the answers.

There were some positive aspects, but overall I think it is a disaster of dumbing down and everything that is wrong with progressive education policy. Thank God for the Tories and Michael Gove. Due to them, I don't think the trend of dumbing down will spread.

picc · 28/09/2010 20:53

Almost can't bear to waste energy replying to you, claig, as you have reiterated your views many times throughout this thread, and are obviously very sure of what you think. Are you a teacher? Do you have any experience of trying to teach/ motivate/ help a whole spectrum of pupils (not just the able ones)?

"Comments not grades, that sums up the collectivist anti-competition progressive philosophy."

No it doesn't. It gives them some pointers as to how they can imporve their work. If you are just told you got a C, all that tells you is which grade you managed achieve to this time. Does it tell you anything about how to gain a B? Unfortunately, you can write half a page of useful comments for a pupil, but if a grade it there, they tend to focus on that and forget the rest. There is a time and a place for grades and levels. But they don't need to be given for every piece of work.

"Failure masked as success by feel good comments and no grades to prove what level they are at."

What do you count as "failure"? Anything less than an A*? Comments are seldom "feel-good" if used properly. They are constructive, and should give pupils something tangible to work on, and a chance to show they have done this later.
Am I a failure for aiming to run a half-marathon in under 2 hours when Paula Radcliffe runs it in about an hour? Or is it good that I have set my own achievable target and that I gain a lot (in terms of fitness etc) through training for it, and doing the best I can do?

"The highfliers became disruptive and their behaviour deteriorated because there is no point in them performing as they no longer feel that they get any individual rewards."

Then it is the teacher's job to make them feel less disenfranchised. It doesn't make the ideas rubbish. And why do they matter more than the pupils who are at the "bottom" of the class and struggling?

"The only reward is the Alton Towers collectivist reward. That will work in the short term but will wear off in the long term, and the top performers will be levelled down."

I actually agree with you on this. The novelty will wear off pretty quickly unles it is constantly reinforced by good teachers who have respect from the class.

"There were positive aspects such as an increase in confidence of the lower achievers, but this could be obtained in other ways without impacting negatively on the high performers."

Okay... so they've tried to do this. You agree it's a good thing to try to do. Any other suggestions? We can only try these things. Then a good teacher will take onbard aspects of all of them and tailor them to their own class. As others have said, none of this is exactly new or cutting edge. But all the techniques can be effective if used by a teacher that understands the class and has a good relationship with them.

"One child admitted that with the mini whiteboards he could now copy off of the clever kids, whereas before he couldn't. Dylan will probably soon change the exam system so that exams are done via mini whiteboards and teacher assessment alone, with the result that copying will be rife."

Yeah right... whatever! Biscuit

"There were some positive aspects, but overall I think it is a disaster of dumbing down and everything that is wrong with progressive education policy. Thank God for the Tories and Michael Gove. Due to them, I don't think the trend of dumbing down will spread."

You've mentioned the Tories and Gove in every single post (or at least the majority of them). I think we get your point!!

claig · 28/09/2010 21:01

I am glad you get my point. I am posting my opinions on where I think things are going wrong. I disagree with your views and agree with Gove, that is why I quote him. I am saying that there is a difference in philosophy between Gove's thinking and Dylan's and your thinking. I think it is important that people realise that. I think it is a very important subject and that is why I post what I think is wrong about the experiment carried out by Dylan.

picc · 28/09/2010 21:15

I'm just intrigued as to what your opinions are based on.
From what I understand, you're not a teacher, and you have no children at secondary school.

I have to admit that, when I first trained as a teacher 4 years ago, I was shocked by some things. By some of the behaviour, by some of the techniques that were used in the classroom. I was always a "high achiever", someone that had to be stretched, and someone that came into teaching "late", because I worked in scientific research. I say that only because I want to you to understand that I really empathise with people that are "academic" and need stretching and enjoy being the centre of attention.

My experience of school was skewed, because I took it for granted that I would be praised for everything I did, that I would succeed. But this isn't the same for everyone. I make a tremendous effort to ensure that all pupils have a positive experience in my lessons, and so I have used some of the techniques mentioned on this programme.

So I have based my opinions on research I have read, classes I have taught, and feedbck from pupils.

You have given us many of your opinions, but have not answered any of the questions I asked you.

I also wonder what Gove's experience of education was. Comprehensive? Inclusive? Has he been into a class and tried to teach pupils? Was he ever a teacher? Whatever the rights and wrongs of "experts" like Dylan (and I'm not saying I agree with everything he said), at lease some of what he said and suggested is based on experience.

claig · 28/09/2010 21:22

I didn't answer your questions because of your aggressive tone, which made me think that you were not really interested in my opinions. I certainly don't mind answering your questions, because as you say I "am obviously very sure of what I think". I think it is a very important subject, which is why I am interested in it.

I will now read through what you said and answer your questions.

zapostrophe · 28/09/2010 21:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

picc · 28/09/2010 21:24

Okay, I apologise if I came across as agressive. I guess I am just passionate about this!

claig · 28/09/2010 22:11

I am not a teacher and I have a DS at primary school. But I don't think that invalidates my opinions. Michael Gove is not a teacher but the changes that he makes will affect you and all other teachers. I have tutored children many years ago and of course I have been a pupil in schools and have been a management trainer, so through my life experience, I have developed my philosophy of what works in teaching children and adults. I also was a straight 'A' student like Emily and also one of the most disruptive pupils in the class. I think that has given me an extra insight into human nature, since I had both good and bad and knew all of the tricks. For example, I think Dylan doesn't understand the importance of the competitive instinct in children, even though he is a professor and one of the country's leading educationalists. He couldn't understand why Emily and the other top students didn't want to be shown to get things wrong. He also didn't understand that not all studenst are equally motivated, his quote was "they all want to show you what they know". That is rubbish. Some kids are deliberately disruptive as I was, and I didn't want to show the teacher what I knew at all.

"Comments not grades, that sums up the collectivist anti-competition progressive philosophy."

"No it doesn't. It gives them some pointers as to how they can imporve their work. If you are just told you got a C, all that tells you is which grade you managed achieve to this time. Does it tell you anything about how to gain a B? Unfortunately, you can write half a page of useful comments for a pupil, but if a grade it there, they tend to focus on that and forget the rest. There is a time and a place for grades and levels. But they don't need to be given for every piece of work."

I agree that grades are not enough, they should be combined with comments. But comments without grades are not enough at all, as all teh children told Dylan repeatedly. The reason kids want grades is again because of their competitive spirit, which Dylan seeks to erase. They want to measure their performance against their peers and against their previous efforts. The comments were not enough. Dylan said that "grades were bad" and he tried to get the kids to understand that. They will never understand that because they are right and he is wrong. He wants to get rid of grades because he believes that it makes the poor performing students feel discouraged, he wanst to wave a magic wand and eliminate that problem by removing grades. He wants a feel good touchy feely environment where there is no such thing as failure or the perception of failure. To him, everyone's a winner and everyone deserves a prize. This eventually will lead to rthe scrapping of grades in exams themselves, to which you sade "yeah right". Here are some more top educationalists in the country advocating just that
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/5312799/Exam-grades-should-be-scrapped.html

To summarize, both grades and extensive comments are required, but as all the students said, including some of the poor performers, the grades are the most important thing.

"Failure masked as success by feel good comments and no grades to prove what level they are at."

"What do you count as "failure"? Anything less than an A*? Comments are seldom "feel-good" if used properly. They are constructive, and should give pupils something tangible to work on, and a chance to show they have done this later.
Am I a failure for aiming to run a half-marathon in under 2 hours when Paula Radcliffe runs it in about an hour? Or is it good that I have set my own achievable target and that I gain a lot (in terms of fitness etc) through training for it, and doing the best I can do?"

I don't think an E grade is a failure if the child has tried their best. I realise that not all children can get 'A' grades. It is Labour and their grade inflation policies that want everyone to get an 'A' grade. What I mean by "failure masked as success" is that Dylan's policy is a cop out and one that New Labour would love. It removes grades so that there are no objective measures of success that are easily understood by students, parents and employers and replaces them with comments, which cannot easily differentiate pupils. It is deeply unsatisfying to the pupils, because as they said repeatedly, they want differentiation. It also can hide a failing education system, which suits politicians. I agree comments are vital, but I fear Dylan's way would lead to no grades and comments that mask a deteriorating education system.

"The highfliers became disruptive and their behaviour deteriorated because there is no point in them performing as they no longer feel that they get any individual rewards."

"Then it is the teacher's job to make them feel less disenfranchised. It doesn't make the ideas rubbish. And why do they matter more than the pupils who are at the "bottom" of the class and struggling?"

Exactly, it is the teacher's job and good teachers can do that without traffic light systems. I think the ideas that Dylan was imposing on the teachers, quite often against their advice and against the advice of the students, will eventually hamper the teacher and lead to further disenfranchisement, disassociation and disruptive behaviour, as we saw when top students like Emily and her friends arrived 15 minutes late for lessons, which she had never done before. I don't think it was Emily's fault, but a natural result of Dylan's methods. I think that the bottom of the class is equally as important as the top of the class, but I think there are other ways of engaging the whole class and asking them all questions which don't involve lolly sticks selected at random. I think the teacher's judgement is crucial and I think that random questions based on drawing of lolly sticks could lead to problems within the class.

"The only reward is the Alton Towers collectivist reward. That will work in the short term but will wear off in the long term, and the top performers will be levelled down."

I actually agree with you on this. The novelty will wear off pretty quickly unless it is constantly reinforced by good teachers who have respect from the class."

Exactly. Again, I think that Dylan's methods, with his student observers etc. will eventually undermine respect for the teacher, as will the use of mini whiteboards over the long term. This is disastrous because without respect, disruptive behaviour will ensue.

"There were positive aspects such as an increase in confidence of the lower achievers, but this could be obtained in other ways without impacting negatively on the high performers."

"Okay... so they've tried to do this. You agree it's a good thing to try to do. Any other suggestions? We can only try these things. Then a good teacher will take onbard aspects of all of them and tailor them to their own class. As others have said, none of this is exactly new or cutting edge. But all the techniques can be effective if used by a teacher that understands the class and has a good relationship with them."

Again I think that the low achievers can be engaged and asked questions in different ways to Dylan's ways.

"Whatever the rights and wrongs of "experts" like Dylan (and I'm not saying I agree with everything he said), at lease some of what he said and suggested is based on experience."

I think he has read lots of research and has been introduced to special student in the States, but I think he lacks real understanding of human nature, motivation, competitiveness etc., which is why I think that he believes the things he does and tried to implement a flawed system.

chibi · 28/09/2010 22:17

Lolololol at 'I have been a pupil'

I have been to see my gp a few times

Does anyone need any surgery doing? happy to oblige...

chibi · 28/09/2010 22:18

I used some money to pay a bill today too

Do any of you know of any ftse companies who could benefit from my economic expertise?

claig · 28/09/2010 22:33

didn't you advise Lehman Brothers?

diddl · 29/09/2010 05:28

"He couldn't understand why Emily and the other top students didn't want to be shown to get things wrong"

Well, who does?

If they hadn´t been used to mostly/only being picked when they knew the answer it wouldn´t be such a problem.

Also re grades-you can´t miss what you´re not used to!

And being very picky here-did Emily spell "hormonal" incorrectly?

OP posts:
saadia · 29/09/2010 10:47

This debate is so interesting. I am a PGCE student (primary) and Dylan William is one of my lecturers. I find his ideas to be really effective but the class does need to be prepared for them - they can't just be imposed from above.

The two most important issues IMO are keeping all children engaged in learning and for them to value learning and I think his strategies work toward this. Classroom life should not be a competition. I think the experiment showed that the classroom ethos ended up being much more inclusive and mutually supportive, and that surely benefits everyone.

claig · 29/09/2010 11:10

I think it is fascinating how different we all are and how differently we understand the world and people. This subject is influenced by our view of the world, it is not compartmentalised. It is about how children learn and how to create excellence. It is about how the best schools (those that achieve the best results) differ from the ordinary. It is about the difference between what created a Margaret Thatcher (Prime Minister of the country for many years) and an Estelle Morris ("not up to the job"). It is about success and failure, excellence and mediocrity. It is about what works and what doesn't. It is about different philosophies and about which ones have stood the test of time and been shown to achieve results. It is about the future of our children and the future of the country. That's why it is so important. Get it wrong, experiment and fail, start from the wrong premise and we risk harming the future of millions of children.

bigTillyMint · 29/09/2010 11:20

I told DD all about the programme and asked her what she thought about it.

She said it was really frustrating when children who aren't grasping stuff are asked the questions and they take ages to get to the answer. She said that it was much better to be in some sort of ability group.

They are ability grouped at her comp from day 1, but she was in a normal, lovely, mixed ability class in primary.

It seems she is an "Emily" Blush Sad

claig · 29/09/2010 11:24

I thought Emily was fantastic and I fear that she will be harmed and held back by Dylan's methods. It is great that your DD is an Emily, that means that she is another Margaret Hilda Roberts ('The Thatch'). I keep my fingers crossed that your DD's school never adopts Dylan's techniques.

diddl · 29/09/2010 11:57

"She said it was really frustrating when children who aren't grasping stuff are asked the questions and they take ages to get to the answer."

But that´s where the teacher needs to intervene & not leave a child saying nothing or pick someone who will be say something on the subject & build on what is said.

I can see how it would be frustrating for an "Emily"-but likewise I wonder how does it get to the stage that some children have no idea at all when asked a question?

I don´t see how someone can be held back tbh.

It´s not as if a class works at the pace of the slowest, is it?

OP posts:
saadia · 29/09/2010 12:11

There are strategies for dealing with those situations where the less able don't know the answers. Given a safe classroom environment where getting the answer wrong is not seen as a sign of failure, another child could be asked to explain what they think the answer might be.

This can of course go horribly wrong if the children have competitive attitudes but peer teaching has been found to benefit all children, and in particular the child who is doing the explaining as it helps to clarify their ideas.

claig · 29/09/2010 12:13

We saw what happened to Emily. She withdrew from participation. She removed her lolly sticks from the box of tricks. She no longer wanted to be asked questions. She started coming in 15 minutes late to lessons, she earned not a single point when she was 'special student'. She has become demotivated, she feels there is no longer any point, she no longer cares as she used to. If she carries on like that, then Dylan will have turned a potential Margaret Hilda Roberts into another Estelle Morris. But he will have succeeded in his aim of closing the achievement gap, he will have dumbed her down.

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