How to manage high conflict 13 year old refusing school over AirPods

[Springflowersandblueskies]

I’m really struggling with my 13 year old. She is extremely high conflict and I don’t know how to handle it. Shes violent and goes out of her way to disrupt the rest of the household. She’s refusing school for any reason and uses it as a way to get what she wants. We’ve sat down and discussed boundaries and made good progress as they have become unclear recently. However we’re at a sticking point as she is saying she’s not going to school unless she’s allowed to listen to music in her lessons (she hides AirPods under her hair) Iv said absolutely not as she’s not even supposed to have her phone on in school.

I told her either go back to school or I will let the school know that her friends are going this. She then threatened to smash my window if I do that. This isn’t unusual behavior if she doesn’t get her way.
She’s had an amazing school report though and is one of the brightest in her class. The school is aware that’s she’s hard work as often still disagrees with teachers and if she is told off then she will argue more about why it is unfair. Her issues are mostly around phone use and I think is a problem with authority. She downloaded the schools mobile phone policy when she was 11 so she could learn it and have a discussion with the head about why it is unfair that the teachers are allowed their phones and not the pupils.
She has been referred for an ADHD assessment but I’m reluctant to let her. There’s alot in the family but a diagnosis will likely make her worse.

She bullies me because I’m the only one who can’t walk away and I just don’t know what to do about it anymore.

a diagnosis will not make her worse. She is could well be struggling with sensory overload hence the request for AirPods. The answer is not AirPods but see if she can wear loops.

but you need to learn to approach her differently if she has adhd.

Who pays for the iPhone and iPods?
why won’t you as a parent remove them from her?
I suppose she’s only young so thinks it’s a show of intelligence and being special to constantly argue with who she sees as authority?

Get her assessed and see if the result helps you understand what's going on better. Some simple accommodations by the school might make a world of difference. She probably doesn't want to be like this.

Omg. A diagnosis will make her worse??? That is the height of ignorance. Do some research.

Also, can she get much worse? She’s already refusing school, bullying you, violent, addicted to her phone, threatening and disruptive.

Has she ever been investigated for ODD or PDA?

I think what the op means by the diagnosis will make her worse is she will weaponise it. “You can’t tell me off for being rude/disobeying instructions as it my ADHD”.

A diagnosis allows understanding even from family members and especially from school. You need to pick your battles let school discipline her for what happens there. You need to deal with the home situation.

agree, this is what seeing at school now , violence, aggression verbal and physical, destruction of school and personal property, classroom evacuations… “no no Timmy can’t be asked not to do that, that’s upsetting for him”.

Is this something that she wants you to ask the school to allow? E.g. I will only go to school if the school let me listen to music or is it you know she’s doing it and have told her no, you can’t take them. If it’s the second then to be frank, I’d tell her to crack on but she will need take the consequences at school and you will be sticking to and agreeing with the school’s consequences if she is caught.
If you are struggling with her, then it is worth asking the school to see what help is available locally for you. The teen years are tough and there may be support locally and sometimes people just saying yep going through the same thing means you feel less alone in the struggles.

Please let her have her assessment. It could massively help if it turns out she does have ADHD and is able to access treatment. My partner (diagnosed and medicated as an adult) first walked away from school aged 13, despite being extremely able. Growing up with undiagnosed ADHD blighted his life, and he remains upset with his parents who unbelievably refused psychologist referrals when he was a kid.

Why do you think a diagnosis would make her worse? Is it because you think she’ll use it to rationalise her behaviour? I’m not saying that doesn’t ever happen - but generally if she has the right support in place she should have better control over her emotional outbursts and find it easier to be in an educational space.

ADHD specialists talk about the compounded issues that arise from lack of treatment - including the development of oppositional behaviour. I think you both need proper help with this and not Mumsnet.

Let's leave the ADHD referral aside just now.

Maybe you can first look for support for yourself OP? It sounds like there's lots in the background, and talking this through with someone may help to take a step back. Also, it would give you chance to see if you could be doing anything differently re your daughter?

If she is really struggling in school because she has ADHD, Autism, or something else then she likely finds the noise and business of school really overwhelming. She is likely experiencing sensory overload and wanting to wear the ear pods is to make that sensory load less, help her to regulate her body and make school more tolerable. So being diagnosed, and then being allowed the wear ear defenders, will help her cope.

If she does not have any of these things and is not diagnosed, then she is presumably using the whole ear pods thing as an excuse not to go when she doesn't need them anyway. If no diagnosis is made, this gives a clear reason why she is capable of going to school without her ear pods and needs to stop with the bad behaviour and make up excuses, Either way you win. You either are better able to help a dysregulated, struggling child, or you put a stop to bad behaviour in one without these difficulties.

tbh with a similar daughter I would just conveniently not see her take her AirPods to school and let her face the consequences there.

Thank you all for the replies. She is likely ADHD. We have a lot in the family, myself included. She has admitted that it would be a way to excuse her bad behavior so that’s the reason I’m reluctant to get the official diagnosis. I tell her it’s more of a super power than an excuse. She is highly intelligent and would definitely use it as a weapon when she wanted.

I have spoken to the school about the AirPods and they have recommended that she uses an ipod with a playlist instead of the phone. I have suggested she uses an old one we have and she was horrified that she had to use wired headphones as that ain’t the point apparently. So if she was really struggling with the noise this would be the fix and all happy but she’s not agreeing to it.

A wire would be visible to class mates, which would make it significantly more visible to classmates that she was wearing something than unwired ones will and get people questioning it. Have you thought about ear loop ear plugs rather than anything linked to music etc?

@Springflowersandblueskiesmy dd is 14 and has adhd - she is terrified of being viewed differently and that will override any benefit of the adjustment she might get if other people realise there is something. She would absolutely refuse wired ear buds in that same situation.she won’t ask for hep and she also refuses a coloured card to indicate it because people will see it.

I don’t think she would mind being seen as different with ADHD. She’s very confident in who she is. Maybe I am being a bit unreasonable with the wired headphones but that is all we have so would have just been for today. Iv order her a new MP3 player that she can use the AirPods so will see if that works. That should be coming today. They break up tomorrow for Easter though so my guess is that it will be something different when they go back.

Don’t issue the violent kid with another weapon. Reinforce boundaries. Tell the truth.

She’s relying on your duty and the school’s duty to tolerate her so she can misbehave.

She thinks she’s got one over on you. Being kind right now is going to hurt.

Explain you’re aware of that, tolerance continues for as long as it has to last legally, but you’re not sure she’s winning this one.

Explain that your rights are at least equal to hers, if not greater. So you and the school are looking to reduce tolerance where it damages you, on an ongoing basis. Be vague about how. Don’t converse, it’s a setting down, not a debate.

Explain no one has to tolerate her as an adult. Which is round the corner. Sad (for her) but true. Diagnosed or not. It would be nice to think otherwise, but hey.

Rebels we admire do good things, not screw others up.

I have a dd with adhd.

it’s not a superpower. I have no idea why you’d tell a kid that. My dd struggled massively in her teenage years and found life really difficult.

many teens (and adults for that matter) who have adhd find the noise of everyday life overwhelming. My dd uses loop earbuds but there are lots of other alternatives.

not getting a diagnosis just means she can’t access medications and help. She’ll still have adhd whether you diagnose it or not.

@Octavia64 I told her that as it’s how I feel. I get it’s not the same for everyone though but being neurodivergent doesn’t have to be bad or a disadvantage. I just want it to be an advantage and not a weapon. As a family where a few of us with ADHD and autism we find what we are interested in and are good at and run with it. I’m not saying that we don’t find some things a struggle but no one is good at everything. We are maybe lucky enough to find our thing and make a success of it. The ability to hyper focus on a task or have a mind that can juggle hundreds of thoughts at one time to me is a superpower and should used as such.

But she’s not you. She has something which she may find totally overwhelming and debilitating and you’re telling her it’s brilliant to have this thing.

This exactly. The way I manage in the world is completely different to how my children do, we're all neurodiverse, but that doesn't mean we're the same.

Would she take medication do you think? I understand the fears about weaponising the diagnosis, but if she would take medication it may well take the oppositional behaviour down a notch.

We also have a lot of ADHD in our family and for DS2 who is the only one who would ever really get violent and make threats, medication has been night and day. He can't express what's different but as far as I can tell he would make the threats because he felt backed into a corner and like he had no alternative. He doesn't seem to experience that constant level of threat any more, he is not riled up 90% of the time ready to fight everyone.

Oh for goodness sake! She’s 13! She goes to school, she doesn’t have AirPods in lessons.

I have severe ADHD (diagnosed at 20, on medication for almost 30 years) and my life would have been better at school if I’d been diagnosed and on medication earlier. So absolutely pursue that.

But, whether or not she takes stimulants daily, she needs to go to school. ADHD is not a free pass to be a dick.

It’s definitely difficult to explain difference to our kids in a way that supports their confidence.

We found an edu psych assessment to be so valuable to help understand our ‘eccentric’ kid - and he did too. It gave him a massive confidence boost to finally understand why he was struggling with some things (and some environments) despite being academically able.

We haven’t gone for formal diagnosis either (yet!) and I agree there is a danger in skill regression around some labels for some kids. But self understanding is very important and doesn’t need to come with a label.

Good luck - it sounds like your in a really tough position. I’m only sharing info above incase it might help at all.