DS16 torn between medicine, engineering and comp sci.

[SassyBear2]

My DS16 has just started sixth form and asked me for advice about his A-level/degree options, but I don’t really know enough to guide him properly. Thought I’d ask here as lots of you have been through this stage with your DC.

He’s logical, good at problem-solving and strongest in computer science, chemistry and physics. He loves programming and would happily study computer science at uni, but he’s worried the job market isn’t secure and that AI could replace programming roles.

Because of that he’s now looking at medicine or engineering as alternatives. He wants a career that’s interesting, not monotonous, and where he can keep learning and progressing. He’s asking which of the two (medicine or engineering) might suit that better, and also which career is more secure in the long run.

His specific questions:

• How is the engineering job market at the moment?
• Do doctors in the UK earn more than engineers on average?
• Which offers more variety and long-term progression?

TL;DR: DS16 is strong in science and comp sci, logical, curious and hates monotony. He’s torn between computer science, engineering and medicine. How do the job prospects and earnings compare, especially with AI in the mix?

Sorry @SassyBear2 I was posting on the bus before and in a hurry haha.

Wanted to say a bit more. Ideal A levels for medicine are probably biology, chemistry and a n other (maths; history; psychology; anything really that will gain a top grade).

Ideal A levels for engineering are probably maths, physics, maybe chemistry, probably FM as well. Similar for computing and FM is perhaps even more important there.

So there is not a complete crossover. Presumably he has started sixth form? Do his current choices or even preferred subjects not take him one way or the other?

Like I and others say, to become a doctor in the current climate it needs to be something you really want to do and nothing else will be acceptable. It's tough to get into, a very hard course to do and when you finish there is still a long way to go before you see the kinds of rewards that your post suggest will motivate your son. If ever tbh.

That's not to say don’t apply for medicine; but consider what is motivating you. If money and long-term career progression are the most important factors I suggest engineering rather than medicine tbh.

For medicine, he really needs to want to do it. It’s a long and bumpy road. I’ve also not seen you mention biology, is he studying biology A-level? It’s rather a myth that you only need chemistry as an essential A-level for medicine - you really need a good grounding in biology, and most medical schools will expect A-level biology. If I was an admissions officer, I’d be worried that he’s not prepared or interested enough in medicine as a whole, as a good deal of medicine is applied biology. If he’s not studied biology A-level, assuming he found a medical school that let him in without it, he’ll struggle with the degree-level biology in the pre-clinical years - topics like anatomy, physiology, molecular and cellular biology, pharmacology, genetics, and biochemistry. Sure, there’s some sociology, psychology, data science, communication skills, ethics and other aspects, but it’s mostly biology
Physics is nice to have as a third A-level for medicine, but he doesn’t need A-level maths. A really useful third A-level to have is psychology

DS has a masters in CompSci and just starting a job at a “top” tech company.

It is a much more competitive industry than it used to be, especially wrt the big names in tech.

The pivotal point was him applying for and getting an intern position in his uni second year. He worked for them over the summer and again between his undergraduate and post graduate degree.

My understanding is “they” (top tech) don’t offer jobs to non interns as they have a pool of graduates they have already tried and tested.

In terms of other subjects his friend is pursuing engineering. It’s a similar situation and he too has been part of an intern program.

Can’t speak for medicine.

Sorry to add I didn’t address the point about AI.

Frankly, if you want to secure yourself against “AI” then one of the best places to be is with the firms developing it.

AI is very, very, very far from the “intelligence” the moniker suggests. Think super charged search engine rather than critical thinking/analysis etc

I think you need to really know that you want to do medicine, most people have had this in mind for years, it's so hard to get into that I think you need to really know that's what you want to do.
Engineering salaries vary considerably between types of engineering and sector but if he's not doing Alevel maths he can probably rule that out at uni.

What about chemical engineering or material science?

Ex is a material scientist and I think that’s where all the big advances will be happening now Comp Sci is dead. It’s a solid STEM background so can still go work in tech/ finance

Assume he's doing maths as a 4th A Level, otherwise most engineering courses would be ruled out.
I'm no expert but doctor doesn't seem to fit with his skill set, is he interested in helping people or is it more about what he will gain (both are fine options!)?

Is computer science really dead?
Why is it still such a sought after degree? Are people just lagging behind the times?

Comp sci isn’t dead 😂

Evolving yes….

Who do you think is building and programming these AI platforms?

Who is writing the code that enables processor's to function and all the monitoring tools to ensure cloud platform performance is optimised, tracked and billed?

Then think of all the IT systems and platforms we use in day to day life…do you think AI built the MN platform you used to make your post or the online banking app on your smart phone?

Engineering is a vast field. My dd is an engineer and loves it, there’s many openings if you achieve a 2:1 or above. There’s also sponsorship potential both from companies to do an advanced apprenticeship or the military in return for minimum service (they are particularly in need of computer experts and they generally don’t leave the U.K. so not your typical military job, dcs friend is involved in autonomous vehicles)

https://www.smallpeicetrust.org.uk

Do you know the Smallpeice trust. They run courses fur budding engineers, in different subjects. My dc did a couple of them.

What A levels is he doing?
Engineering will need maths and physics & ideally FM
CompSci will need maths & ideally FM
Med will need ideally Chemistry and Biology

He presumably isn't doing Maths, FM, Physics, Chemistry, Biology & CompSci for A level ....

YEh agree with @TeenToTwenties @SassyBear2 as I and others have asked, what A levels is he doing? Unless he is taking maths, FM, physics and chemistry and bio his plans are flawed tbh – or at least he hasn't got the choices he seems to think he has. Unless he is planning a change of subjects? Best crack on with it if so.

As a late 30s engineer, with doctor friends.

Medicine you are tied to NHS as your sole employer for about a decade post graduating. That’s a good or bad thing depending on your perspective on them as an employer.

Engineering is a broad church. There are more obvious transferable options from it as a starting point. There’s also the cross over territory of medical physics.

Oh wow I'm surprised more people aren't saying computer science. Working in Tech is highly competitive wage wise and IT departments tend to have the biggest budgets for wages and training.
If I was going to do my computer science degree again I would consider Cyber, Data Science/AI or Cloud Technology.

Computer science is dead? Wow I have never heard that before. I work for a ftse 250 company and IT is booming. We have over 200 hundred people in our department, our wages tend to be higher than other departments with senior managers working a grade above other senior managers, we have huge training budgets and bigger budgets for wages.
Were you asleep when the recent Cyber attacks to place on M&S etc? Who do you think resolves those issues and recovers systems?

Exactly. 😂

Growing if anything. Cyber is huge as well as AI and cloud technologies.

@aCatCalledFawkes if you are 16 now then it’s five or six years before you finish your university studies (especially if you take a placement year in industry or a gap year or do an MSc) - it’s not clear what entry level jobs will look like in the IT sector and certainly not clear if those jobs will be awarded to people in the UK.

The quality of education and cheapness of training people in Asia means it’s often easier to bring in skilled staff from overseas rather than take a gamble on training a raw graduate in the UK.

I wouldn’t rule out a degree in computer science but I’d certainly be doing a lot of research around what jobs are likely to be available and what skills I’d need, and whether those jobs sound interesting,

I read recently that companies are likely to value cross-disciplinary skills like law, philosophy and ethics to help support the expansion of AI and that was an interesting take on where jobs may be going in future that we wouldn’t have thought about five years ago.

At my workplace we don't outsource for cheaper labour due to company ethics and due to exposing the company to vulnarbilities as its seen as a risk.
Computer science is something you have to have a talent for and many staff do start out on Service Desk roles to get there foot in the door but the relevance of degrees to changing technologies has always been a thing. My Degree was probably out of dates as soon as I passed it but the underlying principles are all very similar. Programming in one language should be transferable to the next.

If he isn't really a people person I'd rule out Dr - most of my Dr friends are running on compassion alone in many cases so he'd need that in bucket loads. He would likely know if he felt it was his vocation by now.

Agree biomedical engineering might be a better fit - something more lab based?

He really should take A level maths if he is thinking engineering or biology if thinking medicine. If he isnt sure maths is seen as a useful A level for any stem subject BUT he needs to have done well at GSCE or he probably wont get a good grade at A level.

Medicine is currently well paid when you get to be a consultant but the road to get there is very demanding and many dont get the specialty they would have preferred. The early years dont pay well and you can be compelled to move around a lot. How is he with bodily fluids as he'll have a lot over him? I'd only suggest that if he has an absolute passion and cannot be dissuaded.

AI currently is not that great that it will replace real intelligence. But if he wants to be AI proof learn a trade. Cant see a robot replacing my roof or rewiring a house any time soon.

Good grief don’t pick medicine for the money. Go for economics. DS is on over 100k and only graduated 4 years ago.

I’m a software engineer myself, also at a ftse 250 company.

I would never advise a young person to go into it now, the number of junior jobs has tanked. Even trying to move jobs as a senior has become more difficult.

If you’re really smart, doing a solid STEM degree means you can still work in development later but you won’t be limited

But I wouldn’t recommend software engineering.
Our biggest growth areas are cyber working in our SOC, AI/Data science and cloud technology. Cyber has more than doubled and is currently recruiting lower grade jobs to act as front line point of contact
Where as we have had redundancies in software engineering due to older software being decommissioned.
My boyfriend works for a well known cyber solutions sales company and they are flat out,

I don’t think grads from Asia are a big threat tbh.
DH has worked extensively with colleagues based in South Asia & China. The way their education system works is quite different to ours. This is a generalisation but they often struggle to apply what they have been taught to problem solving in real life situations and rely heavily on support from their uk based team. If a process or system is very well defined then they can get on with it. As a result they tend to be used for the fairly run of the mill stuff. There’s also the security issue - they can’t work on anything related to defence or where there may be an issue with sharing intelligence.