Should days out still be this difficult?!

[GoldOP]

Dh and I decided to have a day out with the dog today and make the most of the nice weather at the coast. We invited our 2 teens dd 19 and ds 17, both decided they wanted to come and ds brought his girlfriend along.
All was ok until the dog covered dd’s white pants and white trainers in clay like sand off the beach and dd’s mood just erupted. She was swearing at the dog like she knew what she’d done wrong.
dd then wanted chips so myself and her walked to the chippy, she offered to pay which was a nice treat (she works full time, apprenticeship wage) when we got back to the beach with chips, sausages, curry sauce gravy she laid it all out on the blanket and told everyone to help themselves but told ds he couldn’t have any (but his gf could)
I questioned why this was and she said it was because he never offers to buy her food. I explained he is at college and only has a part time job earning a third what she does a month but she dug her heels in and wouldn’t let him eat anything.
As a consequence a whole tray of chips went cold, got covered in sand and put in the bin which ds could have just eaten? Ds then said he was going buying his own and went off with his gf and we didn’t see them again until we were ready to come home.
This kind of scenario is nothing new, dd has always been challenging with her behaviour but I had hoped she had matured somewhat as she turns 20 this year but clearly not. She has just had a major friendship break up with her best friend and after seeing her attitude and behaviour today I’m not surprised her friend has ‘dumped’ her if this is how she treats people.
She wants to come on holiday with us in the summer,( i suspect due to having no bf or friends to go with) but I am not sure we could put up with her moods/ attitude for a whole week/10 days.
I honestly thought by this age spending time with the kids would be more pleasurable and less stressful than when they were younger, feel drained by what should have been a nice few hours out the house.

I mean her wage isn’t great but in terms of disposeable income she’s doing a lot better than me! It wasn’t as though she was buying everyone a meal, it was a couple of trays of chips to share?!
Im going to speak with dh about the holiday and what to do, I was hoping this would be the first year she’d go with friends but that’s not likely now.

The weather was lovely, we just wanted to give them all the option of getting out the house for a few hours and don’t see why my ds can’t bring his gf along just because his sister hasn’t got the emotional maturity to deal with it.

Well of course, in a perfect world, but clearly she’s not living up to that and so situations might have to be managed differently if you want to have a relaxing family day out.

God don't tell me it never ends 😂

I spoke with him last night about his take on the whole scenario and he said it was “weird” as there had been no lead up to it such as an argument. But on the other hand he seemed unfazed by it as this behaviour has been normal for her over the years. Less so tho recently which I naively thought was maturity but I now realise is just a result of them getting older and us all not being in each others company as much as before.
I have spent much of the day thinking about this and crying and feeling like I have let both kids down. My ds from about 10 told me I needed to take dd to the drs as he believed there was something medically wrong with her (adhd poss?) but me and my dh always believed she would grow out of the behaviour, maybe he was right all along.

😂 In fairness we managed 10 days abroad together last year and I don’t recall any major bust ups other than the usual bickering so there is hope I suppose 🙏

Now the event has passed I think you need to talk to her about it. Tell her she is ruining everyone elses nice day with her behaviour. She needs to promise to behave if she comes again in future or she won't be invited. You can't continue to let her act like this.

So, is nobody even willing to accept my point? I'm in a family where one member's stinginess has ruined many days, celebrations, and outings. Can you not even consider she might well have a bit of a point, even in a small way?

Your daughter's personality is what it is. We can't force people to be nice, and if she's going to behave like an arsehole then she will bear the consequences, like losing friends who won't put up with her behaviour.

There's nothing you can do about it.

Your son sounds pretty stoic, and of course he will be well aware of his sister's personality.

It's disappointing when we have such high hopes when we raise out kids, but they turn out with different values and attitudes to our own. We also cannot know whether our kids will get on between themselves, like each other, want to spend time together. My own sister is a nightmare and I don't have anything to do with her.

Don't bother with the family holiday. She's old enough now to do her own thing, or stay home alone with no friends. She has plenty of time to learn life's lessons - like how not to be an arsehole.

Dry your tears and know that this is not your fault. It's just life.

I get your point however she wasn’t buying everyone a meal it was literally 2 large trays of chips between 5 people so a handful each. It was just not worth the argument in my opinion when we were having a nice day out.
If she was ordering takeaway at home and he asked her to get him something (like what has happened previously) then I’d back her in saying no to him until he has reciprocated back to her.

Op it’s hard to judge just on this one scenario.

My son is 16 almost 17 and he can still be very hard work. This is exactly the kind of thing I could imagine him doing.

He can be a lovely young man but he can equally be very immature and hard work/selfish. He hasn’t been bought up to be a pita at all but he’s brought me to tears on occasion.

I think all you can do is keep chipping away, trying to model good behaviour and reminding/ignoring a lot of stuff.

Don’t let people tell you it’s all your fault, some people can be impossibly hard work no matter how well they’re bought up.

It's interesting your son has thought she was neurodiverse - are there other signs?

You mention friend breakdowns, social immaturity etc - could she be autistic?

It just sounds like you're way too soft on her OP. The first time she said no chips to her brother, she needed to be told off. Maybe she has a terrible temper and that's why you always try to calmly reason with her? That shouldn't happen anymore as it's shitty behaviour on her part and it makes life miserable for everyone else. Calling her out much harder might save her from herself as currently she's sounding like a petty vindictive moody person and she'll not have happy long-term relationships, ever, if she doesn't change.

I disagree. She needs a good telling off. Asked does she want healthy relationships or for everyone to avoid her for her whole life? Told she needs to grow up. It was a nasty thing to do, I’d nip that sort of behaviour in the bud.

People always say nip it in the bud.

What do you do when you tell them off, have long talks about how their behaviour is affecting everyone, punish them even.

They promise to do better but still end up slipping into old ways.

It’s really quite soul destroying when people blame your parenting when you have a teen acting like this.

You wouldn’t blame a victim in an abusive relationship, you’d tell them to leave, but when it’s your own child you can’t just leave.

I don’t understand why she would expect her younger brother to buy her food. My 16 year old works 1 day a week so his money is his own. I would make it perfectly clear to her going forward that no one who is a child and not working full time is expected to buy food for other family members. In my opinion that would be weird unless the family was desperately struggling for money/ food.
Perhaps you could have offered to pay for his chips or just paid her back for the chips if she wasn’t going to get them for everyone. Too late now obviously.
i definitely wouldn’t pay for a family holiday at the moment. Just do some nice things individually over the summer. Eg a meal out with just your partner. A shopping day with your son or whatever. Also do something with her but if she behaves badly then come home.

Thanks, she can be so lovely but then lets herself down with this kind of behaviour just when you think she’s grown up.

I know in hindsight it would have been easier to give her money for the chips and tell her he was having some. Doesn’t alter the actual issue re her unreasonable behaviour though and that’s what concerns me.

Tell me about it 😕

Well it doesn’t sound like a lovely day for your ds. It sounds like he just accepted that no one will stand up to her. including him. Because she’s fiery.

I have tried all sorts of approaches over the years, lost my shit, grounded her, took phone away etc But I’m now dealing with another adult “telling her off” makes her sound about 5, I tried the calmer approach as I thought it may get through to her.

A good telling off? She is 19 not 5! There have been many tellings off over the years and I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve told her to grow up. I don’t just sit there scared of confronting her about her behaviour, I call her out on it.
I tried a calmer approach as she’s now an adult plus I know she’s going through a tough time, what would have been better a screaming match on the beach?

Given the long term nature of this behaviour and that normal parenting methods haven’t worked, I’d also strongly suspect neurodiversity. “Fairness” can be a major trigger point. Been there, got the tee shirt. You can explain and explain and explain that life isn’t fair all the time, and that other people have different interpretations of what is fair in a particular situation but it will likely fall on deaf ears.

This DD sounds like a very difficult person. I can't help but wonder if she wore the white trousers because she was hoping the dog would muddy them so that she could kick off. Does she pick fights with other people?

Long term I can imagine her brother getting older, maturing and wanting less and less to do with her behaviour.

I think re the holiday, with cost of living these days holidays are just too expensive to risk ruining through taking her and putting up with her moods. I'd say no.

She'll probably feel hurt or rejected but it might be a good opportunity to reflect on her behaviour and prioritise forming friendships so she has other options next year.