DD15 behaviour in school

[blueberrymojito]

After a stressful 12 months with my DD 15 I'm at my wits end and just don't know how to best approach the difficulties she is experiencing in school. Last year she was referred for an ADHD assessment by school due to poor concentration, disruption in lessons, impulsive, lack of focus, lateness to lessons, inability to sit down in her seat for the duration of the lesson, silliness outside of lessons around school. We are still waiting for the appointment. The general consensus from staff in school is that she's not rude or malicious to staff and is often remorseful afterwards and will apologise to staff. Last year she ended up in internal exclusion twice and countless afterschool detentions. She's also hard work at home a lot of the time (defiant, argumentative, extremely rude...more so than what I'd consider to be typical teenage behaviour I guess), but I can manage this. Generally she's a good kid in the sense she's not vaping, drinking, hanging around causing trouble in the streets. She's very sporty and active and is engaged with her hobbies in the evenings. I'm 99.9% sure she has ADHD.

This year she has tried really hard to conform to school rules, and the year got off to a better start. However most days she is getting in to trouble in and around school, being in places she shouldn't be, general disruption, not staying in her seat etc. I think teachers are sick of her as admittedly she's probably quite annoying for staff but again she's not malicious. I no longer know how to approach this. She is receiving sanctions from school left right and centre and then coming home crying that she doesn't think about it at the time and essentially her brain is telling her to do this stuff before she has chance to stop it and she cannot conform to school expectations. She cannot explain why she's done it and keeps saying sorry to us and that she wants to be "good".

I'm in constant contact with school, I expect they're sick of my husband and I but I just want wants best for her and I no longer know what that is. The sanctions aren't working, all it does it highlight she can't meet schools expectations and she feels like a failure in school. But at the same time there are consequences in life and I need her to understand this too. We do put consequences and boundaries in at home, however it doesn't work, it just makes us all miserable!

If anyone has been in this situation or can offer some guidance it would be appreciated!

It's a bit of a vicious cycle too, as you know you're not like your peers, so you generally either lean in and not understand what's expected of you and always feel a bit behind the curve, and / or act more out there, likely alienating yourself. The other issue that's often seen with kids is them shutting down in education etc as they know they can't do what's expected of them, so it's like 'whats the point?'

The other thing I will highlight is the interaction of ADHD and hormones. Not sure how this pans out for kids / teens, but for women there's absolutely a rollercoaster of symptom manifestation throughout a menstrual cycle. Anecdotally, the last 7-10 days leading up to a period makes symptoms worse - its driven by oestrogen and progesterone changes

Meds have been a game changer for me. Not for everyone, and I know lots of people (especially with kids) don't agree, but it's like night and day.

Have you had a discussion with schools about access arrangements for her GCSEs?

Sorry @blueberrymojito I sounded gruff

this is my day job. School need to step up. Make sure she’s accessing the curriculum but with adaptation made for her needs. Good luck!

The wont even consider extra time until she has the formal diagnosis! She's academically quite strong but because of her concentration difficulties she often runs out of time in tests which is really frustrating for her.

Thank you

LittleMy77 - she definitely feels like it's all pointless, and I understand why she'd feel like that. Also when she does do well I don't think she gets much praise from school, and she needs that encouragement. Yet ironically she really wants to be a teacher and is desperate to stay on in the sixth form and do A Levels. I feel the school just see her as annoying and an inconvenience, and she is annoying at times, we have to live with her! But she has many qualities too and most importantly she wants to do well. She said her brain feels like it's going to explode constantly.

@Jifmicroliquid - OK think of a child with no legs. And a school is only temporary. My DD excelled at college on a vocational course and is doing well at university , despite not being able to quietly sit through a lesson at school.

Also autistic pupils should not just be expected to conform in school without necessary strategies being put in place to help them move through the day as smoothly as possible. I'm speaking as a parent of one DC with autism and one with ADD. I can assure you the school they attended didn't just expect them to conform without giving them the tools they needed to be able to conform. After all, it was in their best interest that other pupils are not disrupted.

OP, does your DD have a one page profile so teachers are aware of what will and won't support your DD? I think if sanctions aren't working, at this stage just accept she will have sanctions but don't be cross or irritated with her because of them so she doesn't feel you are disappointed in her. If she's remorseful herself she's probably trying her best.

She does have a one page profile, I think they call it something else at her school but all the staff have access to it. DD herself actually said she can tell which teachers have read it and use it to help them support her and which ones haven't read it at all!

I am autistic, so please don’t assume I don’t know what autistic children need.
The reality is, autistic children, like any children, are all different. What is helpful for one is unhelpful for another.

@Jifmicroliquid, yes I understand you are autistic, you already mentioned that. Indeed, what helps one child might not help another, and that applies for all children. It was your "Unfortunately she is going to have to conform to the rules in school, even though she finds them hard." comment that I found harsh. Yes, pupils may be expected to conform, but not all can with without support. And some just cannot conform, and school may have to work around this. I'm not going to tell you what you need as an autistic person, as I've never met you and have no idea! But I do know what strategies helped my own DC, and the OP probably knows what would help her DC. The issue seems to be that not all teachers are willing or able to implement the strategies.

"DD herself actually said she can tell which teachers have read it and use it to help them support her and which ones haven't read it at all!"

This is exactly the kind of thing DD would have said to me (it was actually only one teacher by Y11 who wasn't on board). It's know it's like banging your head against a brick wall with some teachers!

It might sound counter intuitive to add to her day, but I have a ND DD and am closely involved in a sports club that has a surprisingly large number of ND kids. I hear over and over that doing proper exercise, getting some real proprioceptive input is incredibly calming for some ND people.

It takes out the wiggles/zings/fidgets that can build up. It has transformed my DD, she is almost totally unaffected by her ASD since she ramped up her exercise. Even knowing she will soon be swimming/running/doing circuits/dancing helps her cope with stress.

I'm only suggesting it as you asked if there was anything you hadn't tried - what harm can it do to try really knackering her physically?

She actually is really sporty already! She does GCSE PE and then 5 hours of her sport a week in the evenings, plus she often competes all over the country at weekends! (Just being vague re. Sport as it's too outing). It's been an amazing outlet for her and the coaches think she's amazing which is a huge confidence boost for her I think! Glad it's working for your DD too, I think it's so important for teenagers to have hobbies!

But that’s kind of the point. She IS going to have to conform somehow, because, rightly or wrongly, our education system is currently set up a certain way.
But yes, it’s up to OP and the school, and her daughter to find a way around this. Sadly it sounds like this hasn’t been successful so far.
The problem might be the lack of formal diagnosis at this stage. The school I taught at was very reluctant to put any major changes in place for children without a diagnosis, and waiting lists were getting pretty long.

The school needs to offer support without diagnosis. They need to stop punishing her for behaviours which aren't her fault. She needs support, not made to feel like a failure. My daughter Is awaiting diagnosis for asd/ADHD. She has a get out of class pass, leaves 5 mins before everyone in class, has sessions out of class if needed, listens to music while working or uses loops to minimise noise

I work in a secondary school and I can tell you are pretty frustrated with the situation OP. The problem we face in trying to help SEND students is that no matter what adjustments we make the school environment and the interactions students have with each other is not something we can control.
I often see folk who don't work in school, well meaning caring adults ask for breaks in lessons for ADHD and ASD students. I've even tried it. In my experience breaks like these make things worse. For lots of reasons, if they did work we would just do them!
Imagine being the teacher and having 2 or 3 students leaving the class walking around outside coming back into the lesson. It isn't practical and is actually the opposite of what most SEND students including the OPs daughter prefer. Settled not in and out up and down in and out.
All you can do is pursue the assessment and take all the support Cahms offer and keep doing everything you can to help your daughter articulate her feelings and work on regulating herself. And it's not fair.

Lynette speaks extremely wise words.

You need to shift the thought process from conformity to what does DD need to meet expectations.

We all have to meet expectations presented and produced upon us. We will all find this hard some days.

The difference between NT and ND is we have the skills and often capacity to manage the extra demands.

Those who are NT don't know how to help themselves, often get frustrated in themselves which causes more figeting etc.

What dd needs I support to remove those barriers to her learning, specific adaptions to the environment, specific skills teaching etc.

I would speak to the school and explain how detrimental the sanctions are to her MH right now. How it's only highlighting to her how difficult she finds it to do what others seemingly do seemlessly. And point out they aren't working.

A consequence is meant to deter someone from making a negative choice and learning negative choices can negative consequences.

This isn't what's happening with DD. She isn't choosing to make bad choices. She cannot control those things and the pressure to do so is making it even harder to make the right choices.

I would ask for an agreement to reward the positives only. Remove sanctions and consequences until she has had the assessment. And if she's diagnosed until she's had a chance to settle into a medication routine that works for her.

I'd point out that any damage that's done to her self esteem and mental well-being now won't disappear with medication for the adhd. You solve one difficult for your DD and have created another to solve. That benefits no one.

FWIW you sound like a great mum. Very aware and attune to your dds needs and the effects on others. She's lucky to have you on her side.

This. I also work in education and in some of my classes I can have almost half of the students with additional requirements, all different depending on their particular needs, my email inbox is filled with documents detailing adjustments my students need. I try my very best to accommodate all of them but at the same time I have to deliver the curriculum, and sometimes adjustments for one student might negatively impact another so it's a balancing act. I love my students and want to do the best I can for them all to have a positive learning experience but I know that sometimes limited time and resources, and the clash of individual adjustments needed as mentioned above, mean that I cannot accommodate every requirement for every student, I wish I could. I also have ND children myself so I understand how frustrating it can be from a parent's point but I see the issue from the school's side as well. For my own children we have managed to find workable solutions but I have to be completely honest with you, this has mostly been through incredibly hard effort by both me and my husband, working with our children at home, rather than through adjustments at school. I hope you find a solution for your DD and she continues to excel inside and outside school.

The Equality act is an anticipatory duty - you dont need a diagnosis. They should be putting adjustments in place for her and extra time is a reasonable adjustment for adhd. With her GCSEs round the corner, you may need to push them - read their SEN policy and quote it back at them.

sossen.org.uk/my-child-is-struggling-in-school/

Woman who wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until my 30s here - she's right. The school system has always been quite over attentive to girls - specifically neurodivergent girls. My own daughter, also ADHD, frequently complained in primary school that boys got away with more, and that gifted girls were often used as a "buffer" to keep misbehaving boys in check. I sent her to an all girls secondary after that and she's a little happier.

Everyone works better in settled classes. Unfortunately there are other children like your dd who disrupt lessons so that makes it harder for everyone.

Not true.

No. Chaos is way better