Defiant DS, his mates and the lies...

[crackofdoom]

Struggling to keep this as short as possible. DS1 has always been "difficult"- very oppositional and prone to kick off mightily at the word "no". He's 14 now- sometimes I think he's actually improving, sometimes..🤦‍♀️

We live in a small village, and for the first couple of years of secondary he didn't have any local friends, so I was really happy when he started hanging out with a bunch of kids from the school bus. Initially it was great, they'd just go to the park for a kickabout after school. Then, they started going to this one girl's house more and more. About this time, DS was over there one afternoon, and called me to ask if he could stay for a sleepover instead of coming home. I said no, not this time, come home and we'll talk about it and maybe set some ground rules for future sleepovers (I should point out here that all the other participants were girls, including one he'd shown a romantic interest in). He turned up with his best mate Jenny, who proceeded to be very persuasive: "Please please let him come! It's OK, Liam's coming too!" To my shame, I caved in and let him go- then I thought to check with Liam's parents- who had heard nothing about any sleepover 😡

After that, DS1 was grounded for a week or so, had his phone taken away- the usual. Fast forward to the beginning of the autumn term, this week. DS1 spent Monday and Tuesday nights at Jenny's house, in the company of her and Sally (the romantic interest had evaporated, these girls are just friends). Wednesday I picked him up from a sports activity, he was moaning about being tired. We were watching a TV programme together when his phone went and he was like "Oh, everyone's at Jenny's house, can I go?" I said "No, you're tired, it's too late and we've sat down to watch TV together. Not tonight". Cue a massive strop- why not, it's unfair etc, then he said he was going anyway. Not much I could do, but I succeeded in confiscating his phone before he left.

He said he'd be back at 8. At 9.30 he still wasn't back, so I called Jenny(his friend).She said "Oh yes, DS was here, but he left on his bike at 8.00" (their house is only 5 minutes away). I was like "WHAT?! OMG,then where is he?! Has he had an accident? Do I have to call the police?!" At which point a sheepish voice piped up: "Hello mum, it's me. I'm here really!" At which point I properly shouted at Jenny for lying to me again, and demanded to speak to her mum. Who was in bed asleep, apparently, with a houseful of teenagers downstairs.

When DS was back home, Jenny's mum did in fact call me (she'd been woken up) to tell me what good kids they all were and how she was sure Jenny wouldn't tell lies again and please don't stop them hanging out 🙄 I managed to be polite and cordial with her though.

Today DS didn't come back from school. He messaged me on Jenny's phone to say he was going to Sally's house for dinner- not much I could do about that. Then he came back half an hour ago and.....wait for it....said I need to apologise to him, to Jenny and to Jenny's mum!!!! I just didn't engage, and he went to bed.

I'm struggling not to go absolutely ballistic. It sucks, but I don't trust Jenny any more- she's a shit stirrer and a liar, and I'm not sure that I trust her mum to adult appropriately. I'm tempted to message both Jenny's and Sally's mums and to tell them that DS is grounded and not to let him in their houses (otherwise, he'll just go).

Otherwise....how to get DS to accept that there are bloody rules and that I'm in bloody charge?! I have form for shouting and screaming, but I've got to move away from this. Obviously, his phone is mine for the foreseeable future, and I was considering not doing anything for him this weekend- no getting up early to take him to the extracurricular club that's a PITA for me and DS2- but I feel I've got to strike a balance between letting the little sod walk all over me and being a howling banshee.

Apologies for the essay...

Shouting at someone else's teen isn't really on.

Neither is getting Jenny to wake up her mum to call you. Jenny's mum might work anti social hours and honestly if I'd been woken up by my teen because one her friend's mums wanted to talk to me I'd have gone pretty ballistic.

I can see you are having difficulty with your son and he's not sticking to your rules. Taking his phone off him seems counterproductive as if he has it you can track him and at least you know where he is.

You might be better off suspending lifts etc as punishment.

I should add that although I raised my voice at Jenny, it was more shock and alarm than full on yelling at her!

Do you not think though, that if you have a houseful of kids that you're responsible for them? And that if your kid has just told their mate's mum that they have, effectively, gone missing, then it's a kind of a big deal?

Or am I way off the mark here?

Sorry I think you are a bit way off the mark
Do you not trust your son at all? That's how it comes across, at 14 it's pretty normal for him to want to hang out and have sleepovers at his mates

I mean, if DS1 had done the same then I would be having a serious, serious talk with him about responsibility and telling the truth. And I would be thanking the other parent for bringing it to my attention.

Op if I had a houseful of teenagers I'd be sitting downstairs supervising!! Your son needs to learn some manners and respect. He's taking the p by lying and expecting to get away with it.

Decide what your rules are. He can’t go out n a school night? He can but has to be home by 8?

I think you’re expecting too much by putting the responsibility of parenting your kid on to the other parents. It was your job to teach him respect, not ask the others to start telling him no because he doesn’t listen to you.

It was probably because there was a girl he fancied there. So, before there was going to be a sleepover with that scenario, I wanted to talk to him about what could happen, get his take on it, about acceptable and unacceptable behaviour- even offering contraception if I thought there was the remotest possibility that that would be necessary.

Are you on your own OP? Is dad involved at all?

I'd definitely keep Jenny and co. out of it. You can't really direct it at other kids over this or demand anything of the mum. I agree that you should just trust your instincts regards the mum not adulting. We knew mum's like this growing up.

I would feel very uncomfortable that son just ignored you that time and left.

Can you invite these girls, Jenny and the other one over to yours?

I think you need to demonstrate consequences through your actions without it looking like a strop. Be calm and methodical in the approach. The phone is one thing. What else have you got to work with I wonder? I appreciate this age is difficult.
The weekend may be a good idea. You can sit him down and say it's a combination of all these things that have led to this. You've consistently gone against me and I therefore do not trust anything.

How will you show me you can be trusted and I should re enstate lifts and your phone? Tell him to let you know when he's figured it out. Still don't give in though until after the weekend.

You aren't over reacting at all. He doesn't listen to anything you're saying. It needs sorting asap. I know that is no easy stretch if he's headstrong.

Completely normal not to allow mixed sex teen sleepovers!

I'd just be vary of your handling of the situation
I don't want to go into great detail but I could have been your son 20 years ago from what you have said and my mum acted like you; in the end she pushed me so far that even when I wasn't being deceitful in the beginning the lack of trust from her was so bad that in the end I just thought what's the point and ended up going completely off the rails. It was only in my mid 20's we then started to rekindle any kind of relationship
Your post has been a little triggering to be honest

It does. Honestly, I think some people are getting the impression that I'm a soft parent- hell I'm not, he's always pushed boundaries and there have always, always been consequences- and still he continues!!

@crackofdoom no you don't sound soft to me. I'm guessing you're on your own and this is really tough. My son is ADHD and the boundary pushing is so difficult, most just don't understand.

You're really worried about the sex thing I'm guessing. I think you're right to.

I don't think it's over reacting to say no to mixed sex sleepover. You can tell him it really won't be long until you're ok with it but if he doesn't regain your trust right now then it will really cause problems with you providing privileges. Just stay calm and in control.

Their teens we was all teens at some point.

This is very useful advice.

I definitely need a clear strategy, and one that involves keeping my cool. The only problematic bit is where you suggest I sit him down and talk to him. I often see this suggested on MN. Every time I try this he will talk over me, refuse to listen or get up and walk away, which I find absolutely enraging and which leads to me screaming at him like a banshee.

DS1'S biological dad is not involved at all. However, DS2's dad, from whom I am now separated, is a de facto stepdad and they both go to him every other weekend. He doesn't parent (or adult) at all though- it's strictly takeaways and screens all weekend 🙄

I totally understand. I would react badly too to that walking off nonsense. This situation is incredibly difficult because you're on your own. I was going to suggest appealing to his stepdad figure but he sounds like he's useless.

I'd write it down in a letter based on all this and leave it for him. You don't have to be mean, just really clear and confident and never ever back down. E.g just refer to the ongoing pattern of behaviour whereby he doesn't listen to the rules or you. You can list all the examples. You can point out all the things that are privileges ( phone, lifts, spend money? Anything else above and beyond basics and explain they are now removed pending a further discussion with him after the wknd. Give him the wknd to consider how he will make sure he re builds your trust and he can explain that to you after the wknd. Until next week, no phone and no lift to clubs.

You're going to have to think through what your rules are and be very clear. So are you ok him going there after school? I agree sleepovers are a NO for now. What are your expectations if he's late? How late is he allowed to be and what happens next time he's late.

You need to be prepared if he is volatile. Not sure if he throws things or gets physical etc.

You need to find all your strength not to shout and lose it. It just carries no weight after a while and you're a woman. It's not the same when it's their mum. He will take notice if your whole demeanor changes and you are calm and almost robot like!

I love the website ' Empowering Parents'. Lots of realistic advice on difficult kids. It's not soft approach either.

This is more good advice, thank you so much!
Luckily, he's not physical. (I may have been known to throw things myself 😳.)

You're only human but it's not a good strategy. I never learnt patience in my life like I had to parenting. I got a diary and wrote awful expletives; c bomb was used regularly at one point 😬.That helps filter the anger. Obviously lock the bastard and never let anyone see it ever 🤣

Empowering Parents has lots of great articles on difficult teens I recall.

Teens do not want to sit down and talk about their behaviour. You might have a chance in a side by side conversation, in the car or while both doing something together that involves looking at something else.

"I may have been known to throw things myself 😳.)"

Ah OP. This is a bigger deal than anything else you've posted, and probably at the root of a lot of the problems. If I had a DP who threw things when he was frustrated with me, I'd consider that scary and abusive and I'd leave. Might it be that your DS is leaving to his mates' house because of this? And you absolutely can't blame him for walking away when you're trying to talk to him- it's a scary situation for him when you resort to the physical.

My kids are 24 now.

At 14 I wouldn't be parenting other people's kids. So no, if at 9:30 I had a houseful if teenagers I would not be sitting supervising them.

Also you can't (by which I mean you can but they will think you are batshit and ignore you) message Sally or Jenny's mum and tell them not to let your child in their house. That really is trying to get other people to do your parenting for you and they will rightly ignore you.

If when you sit down for a conversation with your child then it descends into screaming and shouting and you wind up throwing things then there is a major problem and it's not with your teen.

If your teen has been telling other people - parents and friends - that you throw stuff during arguments they may well feel that they are giving him shelter from an abusive parent. In which case there is definitely absolutely no chance they will listen to anything you have to say,

I'd suggest family therapy.

Stop sitting down and talking to him if it leads to arguments. You may find a parenting course helpful because your expectations of what is appropriate for a 14 year old (and his peers and their parents) are way way off the mark.

Jenny mum is obviously not that responsible. Nor should she be telling g you to let them hang out together. Jenny also sounds pretty dubious for lying to you.