At what age can I stop trying to persuade dd to get enough sleep?

[Flamingoose]

I suppose I'm really asking, how old is too old for a bedtime?

Dd is 15. She doesn't have a bedtime, as such.

Left to her own devices she would be up until 2 or 3am. She's naturally awake late night (common for many teens I think). I am usually asleep by 10.

She then wants to sleep until midday. She can do this in the holidays, but not during school time.

She and I are both finding the constant negotiations exhausting. She wants me to butt out and leave her to make her own (bad) decisions. I also want to stop having this constant source of conflict, but I also want my child to get enough sleep!!

She plays a sport that requires 3 early mornings. She often complains that she's tired.

Last night I got up for a wee at 2am and she was still up listening to music and drawing. This morning she has slept until 1 minute to online class and then snapped at me for suggesting she hasn't had enough sleep.

Is this a hill to die on, or do I butt out and let her be tired?

It’s a hill I would die on. We know a lot more about the importance of sleep to physical and mental well being than we did 20 years ago. Also how addictive screens are.

Ds is younger (14) but I can’t imagine abandoning a bedtime on school nights.

Mine self regulate. Getting up in the morning for school is non negotiable so if they stay awake late and they're tired the the next day they soon realise they need to go to sleep earlier! I've found if you give teens the freedom to navigate their own bedtime, they only take the mickey for a little while.

How does she get to the early morning sports sessions? If she's getting herself to them in spite of her late nights, I would probably feel differently about the situation than if she was relying on me to get her up and dropped off at the sessions. The moaning about feeling tired needs to stop though whether to stop giving you the impression she's not getting enough sleep or because she's not willing to change her sleep routine so that she doesn't feel tired - that's the hill I'd die on in this.

If she's getting schoolwork done, is eating, washing, revising, socialising and doing sport happily and successfully on limited sleep, I'd have no problem with the drawing and listening to music in the early hours. I'd be more concerned if the time was being used for mindless Tiktok scrolling or similar.

Thanks all. Interesting to see different views. I always err more towards hands-off parenting and supporting her to be independent, rather than making rules and insisting on them. It's sometimes hard to do that when they make such duff choices!

We've had a chat. I told her that I'm trying to work out if it's my business or not, and she admits that 2am on a school night is a bit late, and also apologised for biting my head off.

I think we've agreed that her sleep schedule is my business if she's tired, grumpy or late for school, and none of my business if she's managing everything just fine on less than ideal sleep.

Pffffftttt... I gently encourage but need sleep myself, so this is not a hill I would die on. If they get up on mornings they need to get up, they escape my nags.

You are clearly doing a brilliant job if your teen is apologising for her behaviour. Seriously most kids of that age wouldn't.

I think you are doing the right thing by talking it through and gentle negotiation. She will realise how much sleep she needs and start to go to bed at a sensible time eventually but unfortunately she needs to mess up and fail in order for that to happen. This is definitely an age where they need to make their own mistakes.