Physical fighting between brothers-any ideas please?

[jollymum]

Just a quickie as I'm trying to sort kids out. My two ds (14 and 11) fight really hard, taking no prisoners and usually end up involving the girl aged 9 and little brother aged 6. Really scared that one day they will really hurt each other, tried seperating them etc but it gets so vicious and angry that the language is apalling and I can't seperate them. As soon as I get it calmed down, one of them will mutter something and it all starts again. They're fighting now, including 6 year old so have to go. Thanks.

Message withdrawn

Hmm really hard
i wouodl go right back to basics and start all over agin
I would set up some rules that htye all have to sign up to
ie no fighting
no swearing
and a clear and usable sytem of punishment
do not explain tyoursefl and simply refer to the rules - if needs be have thme ont he wall. remove things as punishment

and ( feels defensive of Jm)How DARE they swear on your house?
you are boss Jm

go jm !

I agree with CW - back to basic ground rules, and serious penalties for breaking them. Absolutely. I would say however, that talking to friends who had brothers, it seems to be par for the course w. teeneage brothers - ie, front teeth knocked out, windows smashed, blood, split heads. I'm not saying for a moment that you should have to put up with it at all, but I think it might be more common than you think. Good luck, it must be tough.

I've tried, really tried. Got this book about Happy Families. Had a Family Meeting and asked them to write down things they did and didn't like about the family, mum and dad, each other and things they felt were unfair. Kids all looked at each other and DD 1 said words to the effect that OMG, Mum's been watching Oprah Winfrey again. next thing we'll all be at church on Sunday and baking bloody family cookies together. That was such a good idea, wasn't it??!! Been on to Health Visitor who told me, quite rightly, that they've always been a handful, but they shine at school, are mostly well behaved out and as a bunch can be beautifully behaved when they are at social occasions. Tried talking to each in turn, talking as a group, ie on the lines of Mum and Dad are stressed out, knackered, and would be feel much better if you all kept your hands to yourself and stopped using words like sad ass, butt wipe, piece of ...., bit.h etc etc and things that are horrendous coming out of my 6 year olds mouth. They all have their own rooms, all four of them and that has been a battle with them. They now have to keep them clean and tidy, remove festering washing or wear it as such otherwise no pocket money or clean clothes! I have threatened to put them all in one room and rent out the others. It gets so petty, if they are having a fight, the losing one will go into whoevers room and proceed to strip it of all the stuff that's theirs. Play station games, pencils, rubbers, even bloody elastic bands get removed and it involves trashing each others rooms. I hate spitefulness and I hate it so much when one of them gets hurt and the others laugh. I know they love each other and sometimes, just sometimes that all sit down together (at mealtimes usually) on the settee and last at least 15 inutes before someone gets battered. Oh well, they're all healthy, reasonably happy but my hair is turning white and I feel like a referee most days! (angry)

There's a book called "Siblings Without Rivalry" by the same people who did "how to talk so kids will listen" which has some excellent advice if rather American.

geeez... jollymum, you got it tuff.
I thought my two were bad!
I can only tell you what I do with mine... deprivation, of me! I used to shout and scream but soon discovered that was no use... only making me more angry. I do get angry with them and put a plan into action. They are separated, left for an hour to think about what they have done/said etc. They are told that if they do not tell the truth about the situ then they will get found out and get into even more trouble. After ah hour, I go to each in turn, as you have with yours. I sit and ask one question: What happened? Then I listen. I say nothing, do nothing, then when they have exhausted themselves, I go to the next one and do the same. I then get them together, away from the scenes of battle and it is my turn to talk. No one speaks until I have my say. IF there are still ructions and it isnt sorted, they go back to have more time to think. Most of the time it works. My 14yo, as you may be aware, has a knack of winding me round his little finger. The other has difficulties with his emotions, so I have to be a bit careful with him, but I won't treat either one any different. If no one owns up or takes on the responsibility then they both are deprived of me, and their favourite pastime...usually the ps2. I take it away. no arguements.
They upset me by arguing and fighting, yes, physically at times. They cannot sit together either. I am lucky that I only have two for the most part.
I tell them if they upset me, that means I am disappointed in them.
They do play up in public too... shopping etc. I tell them in a rather loud voice that if they embarrass me, I will embarrass them. It stops them for a bit.
You must carry out your "threat" tho. If you just say things then they know you don't mean it. Say it, Do it. You never know. It might work.
The books are great that are being suggested too. If you can gain your respect within the hiarachy here, there may be a chance for you to have a read and put some of the advice into practice.
Good luck with the party too. Perhaps thats a good thing for you to deprive?
Sorry I've rabbitted on... I normally do.

Hugs

Candy, thanks, I'll try that book. I can always use it as a weapon if they don't listen to me. Mind you, they'll get used to ducking(grin). Thanks JoJo38, you sound like your house is like mine! Taking things away is hard, because there's a general TV downstairs, 14yr old has an old portable in his room and 11 year has old rented TV in his. That's another issue, I make 14 yr old turn off his TV at 10pm and he thinks I am mum from hell. What are your bedtime rules? Our times are. within reason, 14yr old 10pm. lights out, out of my face at 9.30pm, upstairs. 11year old in his room by 8.30, bed at 9ish. 9 year old (girl) upstarirs at 8, lights out at 8.30 and baby (well, he's 6 but he's MY baby) he's in bed at 7 and asleep asap!. No, we're not well off, they are all rented and really old.(The TVs, not the kids!) We have collected an old Sega, PS1 and PS2 over the years so technology is everywhere in the house. There are two computers in the study, and this one is mine for MUMSNET! Hope your house is settling down, two of mine are out and the little one and No 2 are here in the same room, not fighting! OMG, it's a miracle....give it time. Thanks for the chat, keep in touch please. I need another stressed out teenager's mum!!

Ok, that's it. Where is my Icon? Try again,

Hi jollymum...
Too right... the house can be like a battle zone at times.
Bed times are fairly routine. 10yo - 8.30 but usually makes it up about 9 latest but if he wants to read then its 8, lights off at 8.30 (weekdays). Oldest - he's 14(just) going on 43. He goes no later than 10 weekdays, lights off before 10.30 - that is if he hasn't gone to bed earlier to "read" his "books" - if you get my drift.
My 10yo is a little sh** if he doesnt' have enougth sleep. We compromise... if he wants to have a latey on Friday, then he must go to bed by 8.30 weekdays. It works some of the time.
Taking things away can be a pain... my youngest has an xbox but that is downstairs in the utility area (little extension) and the eldest has a ps2 in his room. He is into playing music on it recently whilst thumping along with his bass guitar. They all get "taken away" - that and time out with mates etc...
Tough love at times.. it breaks my heart but I can't let them walk all over me! I allowed their father to do that to me... I am not going to let them do the same!
Barriers are made for breaking tho... as you heard, mine did. He is well and truly under my thumb at the moment.
Just take it easy.... and breath!!!
{{{{HUGS}}}}

my son got into trouble at school and as an ecuse aid his brother hits him at home. so school thinks sinister secret punching sessions go on in our house when they delight in nothing more than grassing in each other. so i sat them down told them to cut the shit and the next one to punch will recieve one.

it stopped. no more physical violence in my house unless i am the disher of violence i have had enough

Custardo, this sounds awful for you to have people think that there is such a terrible thing happening at home.
I appreciate your frustration at your own children and at times the eventual brick wall we all hit sometimes... but I am not sure about the violence bit coming from you... I know it is only a threat but surely most siblings have some sort of rivalry problem? I don't wish to begin to dictate how you handle your own, I have similar probs at my house! I know how it feels at times... believe me.
That aside, IMHO perhaps you should speak to the school? There may be more underlying probs that they should know about - and they may know that you should know about too.
Only a suggestion. {{{hugs}}}

thanks jo jo. the story is quite a long one that i didn't want to put on an education thread as am mindful of teacher bashing at the moment on mumsnet, but a teacher mistook my 11yo little boys answer to a question she asked as insolence and it want meant that way. he hasn't an insolent bone in his body. the teacher then gave some sinister rant about my oldest boy in same school " coming foul of her and he regretted it" then left him alone in a classroom "to think of an excuse as to his behaviour" i can only imagine what torment he was in being left alone knowing the said teacher was going to get the head of year. so when the teachers came back ( can you imagine child alone in classroom with two adults bet he was petrified) then said oldest child was punching him at home. i then get a phone call from an amazed head of year telling me my son had been rude to a teacher - she herself found this incredulous. when i got the story out of him at home i couldn't understand why there was even an issue in the first place. i was so worried i couldnt sleep thurday night in anticipation of the telephone conversation i was going to have on friday with the head of year. well the conversation happened and to her credit she listened very patently whilst i calmly and as constructivley as possible went off on one!

when imentioned the incident being a non event - she said her teacher didnt see it that way, i replied that i understood she had to have faith in her teachers or something would be amiss, however i continued to explain that i know my son better than anyone and she herself seemed surprised that he was involved in such an issue.

my son ad been waiting outside the school office as his friend had been injured, the drama teacher came out of the office and said to my son " which way are you going - this way or that way?" he replied "am staying here" she took that as insolence and rudeness and sent him upto an empty classroom and brought int he head of year. son was being honest and truthful, it was a simple matter of miscommunication and blown out of proportion. am still really angry about it even though in my telephone conversation i managed to tellt he teacher how i resented being put into a situation where i doubted that i had full knowledge of what was going on under my roof. i resented being put in a situation where i had to sit my children down for a talk because of this non-incident, i resented having to amature pseudo psychoanalyse my boys - who are perfectly normal in their sibling battery.

the whole thing seemed to be over nothing, my kids fight they take perverse pleasure in teasing each other and killing each other, they also sit together with their arms around each other all cuddled up to watch a movie, they play video games together, ride their bikes together, and help each other with their homework. my oldest son has fought off 3 other boys who tried to take some sweets off the youngest lad on the way back from the shop, he sticks up for him at school. i just hate the sinister implications which arose out of an incident which wasn't a fking incident in he first place.

IMO Jollymum, teachers know very little about children as a whole. Unfortunately there is little control at schools now. I believe that some teachers fear the lack of power to some less respectful children and they tend to aim their power that they are allowed to hold, at others who can give them the reaction they need to uphold the respect they think they deserve.

I am sorry this has happened to your boys. This is not what being at school is all about. This is teaching the children fear and miscomprehension of being part of a safe and secure institution.

We all need a little reminding of respect and sometimes we get it wrong with some people. I would have thought that these teachers would be grown up enough to apologise when they knew they were wrong but it seems to be that they are so embarrassed that they cannot. You getting angry will add fuel to their fire. They can then use that as their justification.

I would be angry, believe me... I would.

I truly think that teachers have lost the respect for pupils (not all, I am sure) and how can that teach any child how to respect others? Your son's right to explain has been taken away. There is no respect for him from these teachers. Surely this is not right?

Power is a dangerous thing if abused. I think that is what is happening here with your son. This fear that is being used against him is not right and I reckn that this should be dealt with sensitively.

Is there a governing body you can speak to - or the educational authority?

{{{Hugs to you all}}} this is not a nice time for any of you. Keep your dignity with the school tho otherwise it will be used against you and your family... (BM has a trait of doing this - and has reputation).

Have you tried talking on a level with your son as to how this came about?

Good luck hun, I am sure that it will soon sort itself out and blow over. I have a few stories of schools that will make your hair curl, but that's for another time. {{Hugs}}

PS... there is absolutely nothing different with your boys than any other normal siblings... they sound more normal than some I know! And you sound like you are a good mum and just as normally concerned as the rest of us about our kids.

I sometimes wonder if it's good to be normal

It wasn't me, it was Custy but thankks for the input! My kids are like that, they are killing each other one minute and tolerating the next. My eldest, who was sitting here a minute ago!, has this nickname for me "Madre" as in the Spanish, and that's his name for me. I have to admit, when he's being nice, he's still my baby boy and I'm his "Madre!" Oh well, wait until tomorrow and he hates me again!

Very sweeping statements about teachers jojo

i ofeten apologised

Pixie - I can only offer my experiences... don't be mistaken that I am a know it all, I'm not... far from it hun... I wouldn't be any where if it weren't for my last year junior school teacher... I will never forget him.

I have had my own experiences of teachers to last me a life time... so have my own parents!

I don't label all teachers as one, just that they have little enough power over children these days, they have to find other ways of making a statement. Picking on those who fear are the prime targets. I am more than certain that if the cane was reintroduced, these teachers would pick the culprit out with out hesitation.

Perhaps this is getting a little political... hmmm... I just dont' like seeing an injustice.
Especially when the victim cannot speak up for themselves.

Sorry Jollymum n Cust... got muddled dinn I? oops.

i'm not getting into a debate about this as we've taken enough of a battering on here recently but teaching to me is a vocation rather than a power game and i certainly don't want to see the cane reintroduced

thanks jojo xxxx

I have two boys 16 and 14. when they were about 8 and 10 we had a wall built so they could have seperate rooms! Cos neither of them ever made the horrendous mess in the room,them getting to sleep before 11 was a godsend,in the end it runs you ragged.
Things between them stayed the same although I could make them tidy up their own mess, or live in their squalor without detriment to the other.
they have had fisty cuffs occasionally but the most irritating thing is the constant sniping at each other.CONSTANTLY! Never wanting to do the same thing or like the same footy team etc etc etc.lol

Sibling rivalry, now theres a term! all out bloody war really.But totally normal and some people would argue that it can be a good thing,giving kids extra insight into relationships when they are older.
Difference in size and not alot in age I feel is the mitigating factor with my boys.
Although thru it all they would always stick up for each other out of the house,that is one thing we would not tolerate-being nasty to each other at school.
But its calming down now,each have different outside interests (surprise) and seem to be losing the constant need to annoy each other.I can see that light now!
When our boys were having a bad day!! my DH would tell them to lie on the floor, face down hands by their side one at each end of the living room in silence while we were there,for up to 30 mins! worked a treat, they would either fall asleep out of boredom or they would have something to moan about together and no more arguing that day.

No debate intended pixie. I think I didn't put it right... sorry...I will try again....As parents, we are all teachers in our own way...being here on MN is learning too. I am sorry if my explanation didn't come out quite the way I wanted it to.

I think teachers do a wonderful job considering the lack of discipline some children have. Don't get me wrong hun, I have no intention of reintroducing the cane or anything such like. I am only saying that it is far too difficult these days for teachers to have any respect from some children as the "naughty/rude/disrespectful" children have no respect for the teacher.
It is probably the most difficult job to do and possibly the most frustrating. There are some teachers - that I know of at least - who do not have the ability to cope with such "naughty/disrespect" and need a boost in their position so they - as anyone in that position - MAY exaggerate and become less tolerant of other children who's issue is not that severe.

I had no inteniton of teacher bashing at all.. and certainly no intention of offending you pixie. My sincerest apologies that I was not clearer. I hope you will forgive me.