Hidden second phone...

[Benzer01]

14yo DD. Has denied having this old household iphone 5 multiple times when asked (could have come in handy a few times). I firmly believed she did have it stashed in her room, & had the chance to look today.
Backstory; she's the eldest of 4 & has always pushed our limits & been caught out lying a few times. Literally any time she's been allowed to do anything social; her first disco she changed her outfit & wore next to nothing. Posted pics & I saw them. At a sleepover she's been out in the village running around at 4am with the girl she stayed with. (She took pictures & I knew she was acting strangely so checked her phone & found them).

She has taken this phone before & was grounded when caught.
She has lied multiple times about smaller things & I think she may have taken money from my purse in the past.
I don't know what to do...
Guess I'm just wondering if anyone has been in this position & how they've handled it?
I am ashamed to say I don't like her very much ATM. I hate liars & she lies CONSTANTLY about little & clearly large issues & I hate not believing her about anything..
Can't get into the phone...it's on airplane mode & locked with a 6 digit passcode.

She is 14yo, 14yo teens need some supervision on phones, it's a fact proved by your daughter too. You are not strict at all.
I agree with SonEtLumiere, you should explain the dangers of hiding things, phone and all the other stuff, you should always show your unconditional love to let her understand everything you do is just in her best interest, you are on her side. At the same time I think punishments can play a good role, when these are totally not outburst or revenge, not to punish something of the past, but instead to prevent something in the future, when bad behavior leads to bad consequences as an inescapable fact you try your best to act right, if bad consequence is not a fact...who cares? I mean talking, explaining, being supportive, understanding, are essential, bad consequences complete the picture to turn words in reality. I would explain this too, punishment is a help just for her and her future, not your spite, you punish because you care.

Now, I would have a good talk with her, explaining the danger of internet and lying, you can find and read a lot of news as example too, I would be clear it cannot happen anymore and there's need of consequences for that, I think two or more weeks grounded and without the phone at all could be enough.
Then give me your passwords (phone and socials) or tomorrow the phone will be totally resetted, follow through, change and keep secret the new apple password and install the apple parental control Family Sharing, it's free, block all the inappropriate apps and stuff, block new apps istallation (she will need your approval first to do that), set screen time limit to maximum 2 hours a day, better one hour, and time limit for the night (starting one hour before bedtime). Take and hide all the old phones in your home and tell her every now and then you will check for second phone, make clear consequences in case that happens.
Then use the parental control to occasionally check what is going on her phone, you could look for new connected devices on your home router too.
The parental control is not a punishment, that's a need for parents and teens.

From my experience, bad consequences per se don't lead to rebel more, that depends mainly on the relationship. A lot of talking, mutual understanding, acts of affection, love, as much as possible clarity and consistent discipline, lead to good relationship and less rebellion.

Interesting comments here from Son and Mary. I think there is a need to contemplate the nature of the "crime". In my opinion, crimes like vandalism and anti-social behaviour warrant strict punishment, because they have a negative impact on other people. (I speak from experience, having had stones thrown at me by teenagers.) By contrast, what your DD has done seems to be relatively harmless and, dare I say, normal behaviour. Let's analyse a bit more closely.

Essentially, you are cross - or even angry - with her for two related reasons, having the second phone and denying she had it, i.e. lying. Now try to put yourself in her position - be a teenager for the moment and look at the situation from her point of view.

You have provided her with a (new) phone - which you pay for. In common with many parents, you check her phone to make sure she isn't using it to do any of the things you don't approve of/consider inappropriate. From her perspective, however, you are snooping - looking at her private stuff - and she might well see this as a violation of her (human) rights.

Now an opportunity arises for her to acquire a second phone (the old phone; her secret phone). This is like manna from heaven; suddenly she can do her private stuff on the secret phone secure in the knowledge that you won't check it because you don't know she has it. But then you ask her point-blank if she has this phone. Now she is in a difficult position - what is she to do?

She may not want to lie (I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt here) but if she tells the truth then at least two bad things (from her perspective, remember) will happen: you will tell her off for having the phone, and you will potentially be able to spy on her private stuff. On the other hand, if she denies having the phone the status quo is maintained. So it's Hobson's Choice - she has to lie to protect herself from your wrath.

But now you've found the phone, and the situation has escalated. Not only have her worst fears (you being doubly angry with her) come to pass but, in addition, in order to find the phone you must have, presumably, been snooping around in her room.
From your perspective you have the right to do so - you provide and pay for it - but from her perspective her room is her retreat, safe haven, and you have violated her space.

She resents this, and is inclined to be uncooperative just because of that. Add in the fact that you are angry with her anyway (for having the phone and lying), together with the fear of what you might do if you access her private stuff, and her reluctance to acquiesce is easier to understand.

Her actions have led to you distrusting her, but equally (from her perspective) your actions have led to her distrusting you.

And that is the problem.

If you think what I have said makes sense, I'll come back and continue, but I think I've written enough for the moment.

Looks like a cry for attention to me. She needs you to be there for her more and to work on restoring the connection between you. Easier said than done and takes a lot of time but that's what she needs! Re phone, I would just keep it and not mention it at all at this point. However if you suspect an actual crime (for example explicit sexual content of underage youth or stolen money/payments) then I would insist on her telling you the password/PIN and inspecting it all.

SonEtLumiere is spot on with their advice.

Thanks all, there's some great advice here which I'll definitely come back to discuss-especially yours, leonard & son...she is a great girl & I admire her resilience & her tenacity. But; she has to understand that for relationships to work well mutually there does need to be trust & there do need to be limitations on what she can expect WRT behaviour. So much of what you have said is spot on. Haven't time right now but will be back. The situation has been discussed & we were calm & both a little tearful-I see her POV & I think she sees mine. I do feel we've connected well & have a little more mutual respect & understanding since our chat.

just placemarking.
I've not yet been in this situation but I would be surprised if we get through the teenage years without similar.

My ds' best friend's parents are very strict.
He has a secret Netflix account, secret phone - the works.
Fireworks if they find out, sadly.

So, Part Two...

This will be a bit more general, rather than specific to your situation, but I'll try not to ramble too much.

From reading this and many other threads, it seems clear that a lot of parents regard teenagers as children. Legally, of course, they are correct - everyone under 18 is a child in that sense - but it's worth remembering that one of the main reasons for this definition is to enable all young people to benefit from the same child protection legislation as actual children, by which I mean the dictionary definition; those who have not yet reached puberty.

Of course, many people regard puberty as just a stage of childhood, rather than the life-changing physiological event - separating childhood from adolescence - that it really is. And no doubt those same people think of adolescence as the final stage of childhood. I disagree.

Just as puberty separates childhood from adolescence, there must be another life-changing physiological event to separate adolescence from adulthood, except... Wait. No. There isn't one. Adolescence segues imperceptibly into adulthood and it's hard to decide exactly where to draw the line. Until 1970, adulthood began at age 21. Then the government of the day changed it to 18, apparently because they couldn't find any justification for keeping it as it was. Perhaps it will be lowered further - a number of jurisdictions have lowered the voting age to 16 in recent years. I've worked in such a place, and been impressed by the seriousness with which teenagers view the responsibility.

My own experience suggests that girls typically have a huge leap in maturity between the ages of 13 and 14 - in other words, during Year 9, which is often considered a "difficult" one for girls. Talking to colleagues suggests that boys have a similar "maturity spurt" but about 12 to 18 months later. (I actually have less personal experience with boys, despite having two sons.) By age 16, most boys have caught up with girls, and this could be seen as justification for lowering the voting age, etc. Indeed, 16-year-olds already enjoy more freedom from parental direction than many parents perhaps realize.

One could argue that, with girls maturing earlier, they should have these freedoms earlier too. That would be discrimination, of course, but perhaps you can now see where I'm going with this. If we consider adolescence to be, not the last stage of childhood but rather the first stage of adulthood, and people like your DD to be very young and - and this is important - very, very, inexperienced adults then it becomes possible to have a much more successful conversation with them.

From your last post it seems you have started the conversation already, so that should help. I'll come back later with a Part Three, and I'll include some links which I think you'll find useful.

@Quoteleonardthelemming The entire "child" definition is: 1 "A young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority"; 1.1 "A son or daughter of any age."; 1.2 "An immature or irresponsible person."

I would look at the definitions of "adult", "maturity" and "responsibility" too. An adult is a full mature person, that means has responsability... responsability: "The state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone."; 2 "The state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something."; 3 "The opportunity or ability to act independently and take decisions without authorization.".

The stage between kid and adult is just a different stage, it's not the beginning or the end of something, it's the stage that we call "teenager".
IMO adulthood actually starts when you have the ability of provide for yourself as a fact, that means at least having a job. When you live on your own, with your job, you match the "adult" definition... are you really mature? No, but it's enough to start to be adult, before that, you are a teenager.

I would separate the physical development steps from the emotional and mental growth. Many people who, according to their age, we call "adults" act as teens or even kids. Many teens still act as kids in some areas. What makes the real difference is just the way a person act and the level of responsibility. Behavior defines a person not his age.

According to recent studies the human brain is not fully developed until age 25! So, according to the science, even the age 18 that we consider "becoming adult" actually should be age 25!
This post www.betterhelp.com/advice/adolescence/adolescent-brain-development-and-what-it-means/
explains very well the reason many teens and older teens are not yet able to act as adults in many situations.
"While their prefrontal cortex is developing, adolescents must rely on other parts of their brain to make decisions, such as the amygdala. That part of the brain is associated with emotion, impulse, instinct, and aggression. The limbic system, fully developed in adolescence, plays a key role; it is responsible for reward-seeking behavior, motivating teens to seek out the social approval of their peers, as well as other emotional rewards." ...."She can understand the nuances of various controversial issues and can sometimes appear more intelligent than many adults. However, without a fully-developed prefrontal cortex, teens are prey to their impulses and emotions and the quest for social approval. This makes even the most level-headed among them prone to making risky and dangerous decisions when they are carried away at the moment.".

We need to enable tenagers to make their experiences and grow up, but in a safe space with the needful boundaries. We should not consider them miniature adults, just who they are, teenagers. A peaceful atmosphere, good training and discipline is enough to let them grow up happily, step by step with their natural time. It's not a race, everything in its time, we should leverage their desire for growth in a healthy way, limiting as much as possible the peer pressure and making them feel safe and comfortable in the appropriate boundaries and limits that parents set until the adulthood.

Well (Part Three).

When I wrote my last post I anticipated that it would not be long before someone mentioned the prefrontal cortex and the idea that the brain is not fully developed until age 25. I have not been disappointed!

Actually, had it not been mentioned I would have referred to it anyway, because it often comes up on these threads and is used as a justification for treating teenagers in a particular way. But the link posted by Mary was very interesting, especially because the article appears to be based on the exact paper that I planned to link to. In fact, parts seem to have been copied verbatim (although I haven't checked word-for-word so don't quote me on this). The language is simpler - the other is an academic research paper, after all - but it does cover a lot of the main points. I do recommend the paper, however, and I will link to it below. Two points I found especially interesting - which I didn't spot in the more recent article - are as follows:

Teenagers are much better at making good decisions in hypothetical situations where there is no urgency, than in situations which require immediate action and where they are emotionally involved.

The authors of the paper put forward a hypothesis which suggests a plausible, evolutionary reason for a relatively sudden increase in maturity during adolescence.

(Perhaps these are mentioned in the article - I admit to having only skimmed through it so far.)

I'm not an expert on the human brain so I could be completely wrong here, but based on my own experience of seeing teenagers make good decisions I would like to propose an idea (perhaps for further discussion). It is this:

Teenagers who make sub-optimal decisions are hampered by lack of practice. Those teenagers who are given more opportunity to make decisions get better at it.

Certainly in my many years of dealing with teenagers I have tried to give them such opportunities. It seems to me that the role of the parent/teacher/youth leader is to stand back and not interfere - with obvious exceptions where the proposed behaviour is potentially very high risk. In other circumstances, if a poor decision is made, the teenager(s) will learn from their mistake and file that information away for future reference. It is unfortunate that humans seem incapable of learning from other people's pre-existing, ready-made mistakes. But the parent (teacher, etc.) can make use of their previously-made mistakes to anticipate the outcome of any decision their teen makes and be ready to offer tea and sympathy (and not say "I told you so"). I think teenagers are more willing to accept advice after the event than before - especially if the advice before is accompanied by their own decision being overruled.

As a practical example, consider an expedition for the Duke of Edinburgh Award. Supervision is remote so the group are on their own and have to make decisions. The supervisor might anticipate that the group will, at some point, make a navigational error. The skill is in making an informed guess as to where that error is most likely to be made, and where the group will end up as a result. Instead of becoming lost they are merely mislaid. The (adult) supervisor uses their greater experience to provide a safety net for the (teenage) participants, whilst allowing them to act autonomously. So it should be with parenting, in my opinion. There is much talk these days of allowing children to "be children" and "not grow up too soon". I completely agree, but I fear we also run the risk of doing the opposite, and not allowing teenagers to grow up, but rather keep them in an unnatural extended childhood - a situation exacerbated by the financial necessity of people having to live with their parents well into their 20s.

This is getting long. Just two more things:

Some years ago the BBC made a documentary called "Wait until your teacher gets home". The situation is similar enough for you to find it interesting, I think. It's available on YouTube, strangely cut into six short sections. I'll link to the first part, but you need to watch them all to make sense of the solution. It runs for about 55 minutes altogether.

On a lighter note, you (and your DD) might like to read a novel (together?) which, although fiction, describes a similar situation, with lying, secret phone, secret boyfriend (which I suspect may also be a concern). The girl is a little older than your DD, however.

Links:

The Adolescent Brain www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2475802/

Wait until your teacher gets home

Book www.paperweightpress.co.uk/Books/Standalone/AramintaK.htm