DS15 is a pathological liar

[MoJoBangles]

DS has always told pointless lies from quite a young age but I thought as he matured he would grow out of it, however he seems to be getting worse and more and more manipulative too.

He lies about usual stuff like it wasn't him that did something and will blame his younger brothers, lie about getting a shower or doing homework etc. but he's also started lying about things that are such obvious and pointless lies that I'm starting to think he's a pathological liar. An example from today; I had a migraine and could smell really strong lynx coming from DS's room. I came down and asked why he was spraying so much (I wasnt angry at all) and he lied and said he didn't spray anything (which was such an obvious lie, why lie???). More worryingly he recently burned a duvet at my parents house after staying the night and made a bullshit story about a cup getting too hot that it burned through the duvet. My mum found some weed in a drawer (so it's obvious that's what he was really up to) but is still adamant he wasn't smoking it and that his story that defies the laws of physics is what happened . It's not the first time he has started fires which worries me and I have lectured him about how dangerous this is so many times. He stole money when he was about 10 (small amounts lying around) but would completely deny it even though he was the only one who could have taken it, stole from a gift shop when he was around the same age and I made him return it. When he was about 10 he lied about winning a regional maths competition at school and that he'd won an extravagant prize. He went in to lots of detail about it for over a week until I found out he lied.

He can also be extremely callous at times. He locked our dog in a cupboard recently and denied it, he will square up to his younger brothers and threaten them physically (and he is a big 15 year old) and used to tease and hit them relentlessly (and lie about it). More recently he went to DS13 who was innocently playing xbox and sprayed him in the face with fly spray and teases DS for having ASD. I've tried to talk to him about what might be going on so many times but he will not open up about anything. I've offered to pay for counselling but he doesn't want to do that either and I'm at a loss of how to help him.

He's doing well at school although he lies alot about migraines so attendance is slipping and he's often late. I know he's not happy but I don't know what to do to help him. I'm starting to worry this is more than "usual" teenage behaviour and he might have a personality disorder (his dad has one and I know genetics are a factor).

There are a number of worrying signs here - i would speak to your GP about getting him evaluated, and if at all possible pay for it to happen privately, as depending on where you are you may be SOL with timely action from the NHS.

Agree with Really.

I'm not sure how I would be able to get him to see a G.P, especially if he knows it's because I think he has a personality disorder. He is very sceptical about speaking to professionals because of his fathers past (DV and child abuse) which meant we have had alot if involvement from CAHMS/school/police/womens centre/SS etc. I've read up on it abit and they can't diagnose PD's in under 18's and there isn't any treatment for it.

I'm scared to admit that I don't think he is able to feel empathy. I love him so much but don't feel any mutual bond between us. I feel like he tolerates me to get his basic needs met but other than that, I don't really know him at all. His only hobby is Xbox and air soft (he loves the guns that are realistic). Both "normal" hobbies but with DS"s other behaviours, I can't help but worry that he primarily enjoys violence. He also wants to bulk up at the gym and is obsessed with making money (he was coming home with quite alot of money from school from "selling sweets")

He has never been abusive towards me and will only hit/threaten his brothers if no one else is around. Other than that, he has friends, is popular and sociable at school and doesnt get into fights etc. He's very intelligent and articulate but this just helps with his manipulation.

He can look me in my eyes and swear that black is white and be convincing.

Your update makes it MORE likely that your child has a personality disorder. Childhood trauma is one of the key causes... I was also in an abudive relationship and my dd has a personality disorder. And there IS treatment available, there is even in patient programmes that offer a very high success rate of massively improving people's lives.

they can't diagnose PD's in under 18's and there isn't any treatment for it.

This is not entirely correct. It is very unusual to diagnose PD below age 18 but not impossible. There's also a range of different therapies that can help people with personality disorders learn new ways of coping and live more meaningful, happier lives.

The "obvious and pointless" lies you describe in your OP - I agree they're obvious, but the point of them is to try to get out of trouble, they do serve a purpose.

I agree with pps that seeking professional support asap is important here.

My oldest DS was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder as a teenager, he wasn’t nasty he just lied all the time. Big things and small things, important things and non important things, he would layer lie on lie when it would have been easier to just tell the truth.
He got referred to a young persons centre at our local mental heath hospital by our GP. Once diagnosed he was offered counselling by a mental health nurse, the first two sessions I went in with him, after that he was to attend on his own. I went with him and sat outside to make sure he attended but the counselling had to stop as he wasn’t engaging with the work needed didn’t do the “homework” and that was that.
He didn’t attend an apprenticeship he got, but just left the house as usual, the first I knew was getting a call from the firm. He did the same with 2 different jobs. In the end I asked him to leave as I couldn’t handle it anymore he got a flat eventually through a young persons support service and lied to them constantly as well. He ended up being unemployed for a no of years, after losing a college place just before his final exams due to lying.
He’s in his 30’s now and we have just caught him out in a massive lie going back years.
I love him and we help him financially, he does now have a job, it’s not great pay but he has done it for a no of years.
He presents as a lovely guy and has many nice qualities but even now if he said it was raining I would look out the window to check.
Unfortunately the help he received back then no longer exists in our local area.

You need to speak maybe privately initially with your GP.
What does school say?
Everything you've said is a cause for concern.

Thank you everyone for your replies. It really helps to know I'm not alone as no one really talks about issues like this. I feel like a failure as a mother as I didn't protect him from his father (I didn't know he was physically abusing DC until 5 years ago when I stopped contact). I tried to get support for him at the time but essentially his father taught him not to cry, not to discuss feelings and to hate me as his mother. Our relationship has got alot better since his dad has been out of the picture but i still get the sense that DS hates me and is traumatised. At the moment I'm parenting out of guilt and letting him get away with not contributing to the household chores and taking a soft approach to him occasionally drinking when he goes out with his friends. I want to have a good relationship with him but he is so secretive and won't open up about anything.

I don't want to label him but yes, so many risk factors for a PD in his life. His father is in prison and I suspect has ASPD or at the very least NPD. He was a very violent and abusive man and targeted DS more than the other two (he was the golden child).

I took him to CAHMS when he was 7 and essentially my parenting was blamed (and the fact that I breastfed him until he was 18 months). They essentially fobbed us off and I did a parenting course but I knew something more serious was going on (he was bedwetting also). He didn't grow out of any of the behaviours I was told he would and because he does well in school (and pretends to be fine), it's hard to get him any help.

I'll see if the GP will see me without him being there although I've been through this before (went to GP about DS13 having ASD referral and they wouldn't do anything as DS wasnt with me). He hasnt broken any laws, isn't in trouble with school or the police so I feel like no one will take me seriously if I list this post.

I'm so sorry to other posters who have a DC with a PD. I'm so scared that he will turn out to be like his father and continue to manipulate and eventually destroy his potential. It must be so hard to deal with this into adulthood and I really hope there is some form of treatment to stop him ending up in prison or worse.

@Tableclothing, what kind of treatments are available? Like @Iwannatellyouastory, I'm pretty certain DS will not engage with any form of therapy.

It will be harder if he won’t attend with you, my DS did agree to go with me to the GP and to the hospital luckily. He did shoplift as well as a teenager but stopped doing that in his late teens, as far as I know that is and as he was rubbish at it and got caught i’m Pretty confident he doesn’t do that now.
He has never been in trouble with the police so it’s not inevitable.
My DS’s dad was a compulsive liar as well, I broke up with him when my DS was only weeks old when I found out the extent of his lying. He never had anything to do with my DS, I didn’t ask for child support, until he got in touch years later( my DS was already lying by this time so it may have been genetic rather than by example) I met my DH when my DS was 2 and he is a decent hardworking man who raised and supported my DS and so it came as a huge shock when my DS turned out the way he did.

Are you sure there’s no drug dealing involvement?
That could account for a great deal of his behaviour - the lying and unaccounted money.

Are you sure there’s no drug dealing involvement?
That could account for a great deal of his behaviour - the lying and unaccounted money.

This. A lot of what you have said smacks of drug use to me.

Also how on earth did CAHMS blame you for breastfeeding until he was 18 months?! That's ridiculous.

@Iwannatellyouastory, thank you for sharing your experience and it gives me hope that if he does have a PD, he may not necessarily end up continuing some of the behaviours although I'm pretty sure he doesn't steal from shops anymore (but will take money if its lying around, like a few pounds). I am really worried about the genetic component from his dad as he is not from this country and so I have no idea about his previous medical history/mental health problems. I will sit DS down tonight and ask if he'd be willing to come to the GP but make an appointment without him anyway if he refuses.

I'm pretty certain he isn't drug dealing although I'm worried he has dabbled in things other than weed (he admits to occasional weed and vaping but nothing else). The money thing was a couple of years back and i suspect he may have been selling vapes rather than sweets and also energy drinks because he's tall and looked 16 when he was 13/14 so would be able to buy them. I do worry about his obsession with money as that's ultimately why his dad is in prison and I think my DS thinks it's all very glamorous to be a gangster. My mum drives and picks him up from school and he spends the day at my parents (both retired) if he stays off school. Only goes out with his friends one evening per month and I know he drinks when he does this but I'm trying to pick my battles with him. I really don't think he is drug dealing as he doesn't spend much time alone away from the family and everything else I've mentioned has been going on since he was little (so no sudden change of behaviour recently).

He just came home from school saying he spat on another boys head and this boy urinated on his tie, so he took this boys tie also. No idea how true any of this is but at 15, why is he behaving like this and then bragging to me about it?

The breast feeding comment was a theory by CAHMS clinical psychologist that I breastfed him for too long (18 months) and had to stop as I was pregnant with DS13 which made DS too attached to me and jealous of his younger brother. She made it very clear that it was abnormal to BF for this long and thought his issues stemmed from this (and why he has always been so nasty to younger siblings) which I don't buy as WHO recommends BFing until 2 years. I wasn't aware exH was abusing DS at this point although they knew he had witnessed DV so I'm not sure why she went with such a strange theory when it's obvious he is traumatised from his father and DV.

Honestly, some of the things that have been said to me by professionala is unbelievable. It's easy to judge a (then) young single parent (I had DS at 19) with a father in prison. I'm nothing like his dad though and have worked hard to make sure my DC have a good life. I went to uni and got my undergrad and masters and now have a good career which I'm considering giving up to be there more for DC. I thought things would get easier as they got older but it's just getting harder to parent 2 DC with ASD and DS15 with his current behaviour. I constantly feel on the edge of a breakdown.

Op, my eldest is 14 and I can see a lot of similarities (his relationship with me has changed and rather than being his world, I'm a cringeworthy nuisance, obsessed with money and what things cost, socialises mainly on Xbox and is into doing his weights. He's also intollerant towards to his siblings and very negative). However, the cruelty to animals and the fire-setting (along with incessant lying) would be ringing bells. These are dangerous acts. Speak to your GP. Do you have a good pastoral care staff at his school you could have a chat with?

@curiousramshackle, it's good to know that some of his behaviour is normal teen stuff. I'm trying to not jump to conclusions about DS as he is not his father but like you say, the other stuff is really concerning and sounds like how serial killers start out.

What breaks my heart is that he just seems really sad and doesn't feel able to trust me enough to open up about his feelings. I wish I could wave a magic wand.

He's very secretive at school and keeps his head down with teachers. He was reluctant to talk to any of his teachers when he recently decided he wants to drop one of the GCSE subjects he chose even though its causing him alot of anxiety, so I'm not sure he would be able to open up about all of this stuff. I've mentioned to school before that I'm concerned about DS but he is so charming that they just look at me like I'm mad for suggesting it. It doesnt help that DS13 has only recently been diagnosed with ASD and prior to that, his behavior at school was blamed on my parenting (you can see the theme here), so they would probably chalk DS15's issues at home as being my fault in some way because he's so well behaved at school.

I've been burned by the system so many times that I'm scared to get professionals involved.

I can completely see why you'd be wary of the system, but your family needs help. Your DS may well be a danger to others, or heading that way, and you've got a duty of care to your younger kids too, as well as to yourself and maybe most of all to him.

Sorry but I have a 15 yr old ds, and your ds is not displaying typical teen boy behaviour.
Pathological lying is a real red flag and you def need to take him to GP in first instance.
Not all health professionals are bad though either. Camhs has been useful from my personal experience.