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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

Original poster

DD (13) and gender identity

23 replies

howtocope · 07/05/2019 21:30

DD (13) has been trying to change pronouns to 'they/them'. DH and I are trying to adapt but, after 12 years of she/her, we keep getting it wrong. We have discussed this many times and DD does not want to transition to male, identifies as sexually female and 'presents' as female (long hair, dresses, painted nails, make up, etc) but gets very upset when referred to as 'miss' in public or at school. DD attends an all girls school, so this happens a lot. For example, a teacher will refer to the whole classroom as 'ladies' or 'girls'. I've tried to explain that this is going to happen in an all girls school but DD says it's awful and shouldn't happen.

Strangers, like shop assistants, have referred to DD as 'miss' and I've tried to explain that it's not personal, just the way the English language works with male and female pronouns, titles, etc and that it's based on appearance more than anything. How can a stranger know how one internally identifies? Things are changing but I know it will take time. In the meantime, I don't know how to cope with DD's anger and upset. There is a tone of victimisation and self-pity to DD's discourse that I definitely dislike (DH agrees with this). We both wonder if this is a trend for DD and will pass. Anyone else dealing with this?

I should also say that DD identifies as bisexual, though there have been no romances yet. DH and I are comfortable with this. My sister is married to another woman, one of my best friends is a gay man, etc, etc. In fact, our reaction of 'OK' to this announcement upset DD. It seems a bigger reaction was called for. It seems we can't get anything right.

We're comfortable with the concept of non-binary gender identity but we do struggle with the language and the use of plural pronouns when referring to one person. It also feels very impersonal to refer to DD as 'they' and to use terms like 'child' rather than 'daughter'. It feels distancing. Maybe that's part of the goal for DD?? I also think I'm referring to biological sex rather than gender identity when I use words like 'daughter' but it seems to be a PC minefield. I would appreciate hearing any similar experiences and any advice please.

OP posts:
Original poster
howtocope · 08/05/2019 08:43

Bumping to see if any daytime mumsnetters can help.

OP posts:
Branleuse · 08/05/2019 08:56

I think id roll my eyes and let her get on with it. Its a bit typically teenager at the moment. It sounds like something she is fascinated by, but doesnt sound like shes in big danger of mutilating or medicating herself, so id keep an eye, but try not to stress

Stiffasaboard · 08/05/2019 09:13

It’s the new goth or multiple piercings
Your acceptance is definitely part of her upset- she wanted a bit of shock and fascination and feeling special

Not be cruel in that comment- all teenagers do it about something- well many do if not all.

Just try your best and go with it for now

Original poster
howtocope · 08/05/2019 09:48

Thanks, I thought it might be a phase but want to be respectful. The drama is just exhausting.

OP posts:
Branleuse · 08/05/2019 09:53

Maybe id even make a point of introducing her as "my gender non specific child, whose pronouns are the plural" to everyone, with a wink.

Branleuse · 08/05/2019 09:54

I might even choose a new gender for myself out of the 72 available, and insist that your gender non specific child only used fairy based pronouns for me.

RuffleCrow · 08/05/2019 10:01

You need to explain to her the way communication works:

None of us can censor what comes out of someone else's mouth. Pronouns haven't evolved linguistically to 'belong' to people. Other human beings have as much right to choose the words that come out of their mouths as she does. If the sky appeared grey to her - would she allow someone else to bully her into their view that it was pink? Or would she have the right to stick to her guns in using the words that felt right to her?

Maybe show her the 'tea' consent video on youtube. It's ostensibly about sexual consent - but actually could work for any context where one person is trying to force their beliefs on another.

She's free to consider herself a 'they' but she doesn't have the right to force this belief on others. They can agree to disagree.

MumUnderTheMoon · 08/05/2019 10:17

Asking people to uses gender neutral pronouns will not stop people referring to her as miss if she presents as female to the outside world. I agree with her that it would be better for her teachers to say "students" instead of girls/ Ladies but that is because people will often do this to make women feel small. Unless she identifies as gender non binary then I don't think gender neutral pronouns are the way to solve her issues. Perhaps you could encourage her to ask for a meeting with the principal to discuss her concerns and offer to go with her.

ourkidmolly · 08/05/2019 11:35

Sounds really painful. Can't get over the amount of children reported on here who are identifying as bisexual when they've never had any sex at all. We seem to be going in a strange direction as a society. I'm not sure it's a good one.

mummmy2017 · 08/05/2019 11:46

Explain to her does she want to be saying this to complete strangers all her life, that she needs to see people who care about her will try very hard to do as she asks .
But if she spends 3 mins educating people who will forget the second they walk away, telling ten people a week. Works out this lot of her life ..
3 * 10.... 30 mins a week...
1/2 hour * 52 weeks...... 26 hours....
Basically due to sleeping and being home.... 26 hours is really 2 days in public a year wasted on people, who don't care...
2 days every year of her life when she could be doing something she enjoys...

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/05/2019 11:49

Would 'Ms' help? I corrected people from the age of 12 because I objected to 'Miss'. I mean probably not, but in my view, it is all part of the sexist landscape that makes being 'non-binary' attractive.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 08/05/2019 11:59

Almost every kid in dd's class is gay, bisexual, trans or non binary and they are all very angsty about it. There isn't any joy in the movement despite the rainbow flags. I see children's angst and poor mental health being co opted to push an agenda. This isn't a bottom up movement like most youth movements, it's top down. I have had discussions with dd, she would call them arguments though they are calm, factual and evidence based. Your daughter is entitled to her opinions but she isn't allowed to police other peoples words, thoughts or language.

Greencustard · 08/05/2019 13:11

You need to explain to her the way communication works

None of us can censor what comes out of someone else's mouth. Pronouns haven't evolved linguistically to 'belong' to people. Other human beings have as much right to choose the words that come out of their mouths as she does. If the sky appeared grey to her - would she allow someone else to bully her into their view that it was pink? Or would she have the right to stick to her guns in using the words that felt right to her?

^ This

Alone1971 · 08/05/2019 15:40

it sounds like a phase. As soon as my son's schoolmates went to a secondary school, they suddenly became gay, or bisexual or trans etc, without knowing what any of it actually means and if course it is all transient. One week they have a boyfriend and are straight, following week they prefer girls and are lesbian. I do not understand it at allConfused

Original poster
howtocope · 08/05/2019 15:53

DD's school is actually very progressive. It's an all girls school but the loos are gender-neutral. The Head has asked teachers to say 'students' rather than 'girls' or 'ladies' but some do slip up.

Almost every kid in dd's class is gay, bisexual, trans or non binary and they are all very angsty about it

I've noticed this too! I've tried to look at it positively as the children are starting their sexual/romantic lives with an open mind but it does cause them angst. I think DD sometimes worries that she isn't gay enough. There seems to be some kind of social cache in being non-binary, gay, etc rather than plain old vanilla cis straight.  As someone said, maybe it's that teen desire to be different, but they all end up doing the same thing.

I get the comparison to being Goth. At this point black lipstick and sad music would be a respite from the moral outrage and lecturing.

I'll just keep telling DD to be herself, whatever form that takes, and we will love her. This too shall pass.

OP posts:
SummerHouse · 08/05/2019 16:00

*to be themselves Wink

SirVixofVixHall · 15/05/2019 18:09

This would get so much eye rolling from me. Everyone is “non binary” for a start. Then the bisexual when she is too young to be sexual, that is depressing.
It does sound as though she is simply trying to push boundaries and shock, and getting annoyed that you are not making it into a drama. My eldest is 14 and the endless dramas in her peer group are a shock to me.
I think my response would be “that’s nice dear”.

FishCanFly · 15/05/2019 18:47

Find another school, preferably co-ed. Looks like "progressive" is actually toxic

joinedjustfordw · 16/05/2019 17:35

You’ve made a mistake coming to Mumsnet, all you’re going to get is ideas put into your head that you’re eventually going to upset your daughter with

alishylishy · 17/05/2019 16:21

My daughter is 14 and going through something very similar. She goes by a boys name at school (friends only - we have told the teaching staff that we wish for her to remain female on their records and for them to call her by her real name) but is totally happy to go by her real name and gender at home. The drama is ridiculous!

I wonder if your daughter goes to an all girls school? Mine does and the research I've done on the matter seems to suggest that it is common in an all female school.

I resonate with the person that said all their daughter's friends are on the LGBT+ spectrum, my daughter says she has no 'cis' (hate this term) friends and that the cis people are boring.

I totally think it is the new goth/emo phase, my issue with it is that it has the potential to be damaging. My daughter has already experienced mild bullying/teasing at a mixed sex club she attends. I actually think this might be a positive though, school is an echo chamber with all the girls trying to out-LGBT each other, they need to see how life is in the real world and that not everyone is going to cheerlead their life choices.

I hope you're alright? It has been a traumatic few months for us involving self harm, but I think she is becoming more emotionally settled and I'm hoping it's going to pass...

FishCanFly · 17/05/2019 18:06

I resonate with the person that said all their daughter's friends are on the LGBT+ spectrum, my daughter says she has no 'cis' (hate this term) friends and that the cis people are boring.
Similar occurrence as in prisons I'm afraid. And topped up with "progressive" Kool-Aid. Just get her out of there

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 17/05/2019 18:13

How can the loos at a single sex school be gender neutral??
I would be taking a very good look at what she's looking at online and get her off sites like Tumblr.
A lot of it is just teenage me me me me me, but with the internet they get to feel a million times more hard done by.

alishylishy · 17/05/2019 18:54

FishCanFly - unfortunately we tried but she's in the last term of year nine and there is no space at any of the local schools. We've enrolled her in mixed sex clubs and blocked social media/Tumblr/mermaids etc sites at the router.

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