Suitable punishment.....

[MummyandStepMum]

DSS (15) has always had problems at school, usually a detention either lunch time or after school and always for the same reason - arguing with teachers. The usual punishment is no Xbox or being grounded.

This week has been the worst! He's already been in referral for half of yesterday plus 2 after school detentions and I've just had another email saying he's been in referral today! He already doesn't have his Xbox and is grounded.....so how the heck do we add to that? He's suppose to be going to a theme park at the weekend with his friend for his birthday, I say he doesn't go but DH thinks that's too harsh?

We've tried to address the issue of arguing with teachers but unfortunately as soon as someone starts showing authority he just will not back down and do as he's told, I don't know how he's going to manage the rest of his life like that! We know how to handle him at home so we don't have any problems with him it's just school.

Any advice would be great, thank you

Is the theme park trip for his friend's birthday, or his?

I think it's very hard to effectively punish another innocent child. If the other boy's family have bought his ticket and the other boy is looking forward to it, why wreck THEIR birthday treat to discipline your child? Likewise if it is your boy's birthday, why should his friend have his day out cancelled?

I suspect you will escalate the battles with him if you turn to harsher and harsher punishments.

Have you also read 'How to Talk to teenagers so Will Listen.."?

This link is about talking to teens about drugs etc, but it has good general guidelines about tone and approach www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/talking-to-your-teenager/

I wonder if his talking back and resisting authority is actually based in lack of confidence? he has no faith in his ability to do well, expects to fail / do badly, so takes control of it and makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. And, looking like a rebel to your friends maybe looks better than looking 'stupid'.

Does he have a reputation to keep up?

How DO you handle him at home?

There must be something at school that makes him behave badly there while being OK at home, and I think you need to get to the bottom of it.

@namechangedtoday15 I might change my username! Skidding Unicorns conjures up a very funny mental image

Is it the same teacher/s every time? Or in the same subjects that maybe aren't his strong subjects?

As pp said teachers too are only human, my dd struggled last years at school, mainly due to one particular teacher. I backed the teacher while also supporting dd and not obviously knowing the truth as I wasn't there - then the teacher let rip at me one time! Before I'd even said anything! I'd gone through the switchboard and got put through to her, as soon as she knew who she was speaking to (literally 'hi, it's graphista dds mum') I wasn't even calling about the problems, there hadn't been a recent occurrence, I was calling because there was a school trip coming up and I needed to check something.

Completely lost it! In the midst of this she used certain mispronunciation of words and odd turns of phrase that dd had described to me before (and which she'd never said to me in many conversations before) - long story short I learned this teacher had basically fooled me into thinking she was behaving reasonably AND that dd wasn't the first to have problems with her.

Not saying dd was perfect in her reactions either - just saying it may not all be dss's 'fault'

I also have lots of friends and family who teach inc one who works in a behavioural unit that's basically a school for kids nobody else will take - and even she says some of the time these kids have lost their trust in teachers due to a bad one early on, think all teachers are the same and it spirals from there.

Even with all that in mind I said to dd about picking your battles, not giving someone who maybe does have something against you more ammo etc (let's face it we've all met adult bullies and know the more reasonable you are the less you're playing into their hands of painting you as the bad guy).

Not saying give him ideas either - but to keep in mind just because it's a teacher doesn't mean the problem isn't 6 of one and half a dozen the other!

"he lives by the rules and rarely causes arguments at home, but school is another story!" Another reason I wouldn't take it as read that it's all him - it's out of character. Although another possibility is peer pressure

Teachers shouldn't NEED to be shouting, are they shouting just at him or to the class in general? I wonder if they're newly promoted and trying to prove they deserve it?

Also all stick and no carrot doesn't work for behaviour modification in anyone let alone teens. Rewards can take longer to show results but have longer lasting results too.

He's mentioned the teachers he's had problems with this week have been shouting at him. He can't deal with it and it makes him angry and never back down.

That's really useful information. One thing that could be happening is that he;s not picking up on cues and demands from teachers when they speak reasonably, and only 'hears' them when they lose it. Or he;s simply ignoring instructions then being shouted at for doing so. If he focuses in the first place, he'll avoid the confrontation.

This might sound mad, but I'd actually practise handling being shouted at with him. Once you've chatted about it, discuss things he could do to stay calm and centred. (Deep breaths/instant backdown/ polite quick apology, and encourage him to silently congratulate himself every time he manages to do this.) Say you'll shout at him, that you don't mean it, but you want him to practise when there's no real confrontation, how to cope with it, so he can diffuse the situation not escalate it.

This might sound mad, but I'd actually practise handling being shouted at with him

I don’t think it sounds mad at all, it sounds really sensible. Ds1 is autistic and as he gets older is struggling socially more than ever, so DP and I role play social situations and reactions with him so that he is able to cope in the outside world. And if he does become overwhelmed or stress it’s in a safe place with his safe people.

Punishments don't seem to be working so I can't see how escalating them would help.

Someone needs to get to the root of this behaviour as MinaPaws describes. When you understand why it is happening, someone should be able to help him change it.

He doesn't sound like the sort of person who would break the rules for kicks so he is probably as unhappy about this situation as you are and would welcome some help to learn to control his emotional responses.

Personally, I let the school deal with punishment and consequences at school. Otherwise I would be battling all the time - I deal with the consequences of bad behaviour at home and thats plenty! You don't mention home, so perhaps he is OK there?!

As a teacher, this is the most frustrating thing a parent can do, and it is incredibly damaging and doesn't help your child in any way. If there isn't consistency between home and school there is no chance.

I can assure you, the pupils who get in trouble at home when they're in trouble at school rarely develop particularly problematic behaviour. The pupils whose parents take the attitude that it's the school's job to deal with that, and no repercussions at home, often develop serious behavioural problems or, sometimes, just develop quite a nasty, entitled attitude towards other humans. Not a great lesson in life.

The trip is for his birthday and we were paying for his and friends ticket and taking and picking up. He's going now as DH has agreed he can, I still don't think he should be allowed to. We've had 3 emails and a call from school this week about his behaviour it just doesn't seem right that he should then get to do something which is a treat?

We really have no problems with him at home, he's respectful and does as he's asked, the problem is purely at school and his respect for teachers....

You can be supportive of the school's message without double punishing your ds. I have never double punished but we always have a good and thorough conversation about what went wrong and how they could have handled it better given what they tell me.

There are some bossy teachers like Bazzlebear know alls on this thread. You don't speak for me or my experience either! We all have our point of view, just trying to help the OP!

I was talking about my experience of what I would do and what works for me, having had some similar experiences. I did suggest talking to her DS - but simply questioned the effectiveness of handing out punishments on top of school punishments. I didn't say it was wrong, just questioned it.

Jeez.

Anyway, since OP's DS is fine at home, I would wonder further what is going on, as I would expect that is a fairly unusual combination.

The pupils whose parents take the attitude that it's the school's job to deal with that, and no repercussions at home, often develop serious behavioural problems or, sometimes, just develop quite a nasty, entitled attitude towards other humans.

I have a large group of friends, several of whom are teachers, who all agreed early on with the principle of school sanctions are enough and all you need to do is let the child know you support those actions. We expect similar standards of behaviour at home as are expected at school so there is plenty of consistency.

None of us has ever felt it necessary to impose extra sanctions at home on top of those imposed by school and all of the children have grown up to be well behaved, hard working an respectful.

You comment sounds like that of a teacher who has lost the respect of their pupils and is looking to blame the parents, rather than reflect on their own skills.

You comment sounds like that of a teacher who has lost the respect of their pupils and is looking to blame the parents, rather than reflect on their own skills.

Interesting comment on your perception of my skills, but as a teacher with vast experience with behaviourally tricky pupils in a wide range of demographically different schools, you could not be more wrong, and my position and promotions would attest to that. Thanks for your concern though- as all good teachers, I reflect on my skills every day, and am always trying to improve. I am just also realistic of the importance of parenting in developing children's abilities to manage their own behaviours. The attitude of 'what happens in school stays in school' and 'it's the school's job to make him respect teachers' is incredibly unhelpful and in many cases damaging.

(And no, I'm not the horrible struggling teacher who hands out punishments left right and centre and is hated by the kids. I'm the one they come to crying when they're struggling, I'm the one who follows up behaviour issues with parents, and I'm the one who mediates in instances where behaviour has come between learning in another subject.)

what happens in school stays in school You don't need to double punish though - talking to them about how they could have handled the situation better is what a parent can do to support their teen deal with the challenges of teachers they don't hit it off with - doing this teaches them a life skill and punishing them does not.
Also curious - how would you know as a teacher which parents double punish? I am pretty strict, but I consider myself fair too - one of my kids(other one has never been in trouble) has only been in trouble twice at primary - never at secondary - I didn't punish - in fact I didn't believe the report the teacher gave me - I know my kids and I gave him the time to tell me what had happened and it was quite a different story to the conclusion the teacher had jumped to and teacher agreed she was wrong on both occasions (different teacher).

Hi OP. How is he doing with his subjects/ exams? You mentioned that time out of the classroom is a 'result' for him. Is it possible that he is struggling with the work and arguing is a way of regaining control of the situation. Also, re home being 'argument free'...how does it work if you ask him to do something ( like stopping Xbox for homework) that he doesn't want to?

as a teacher with vast experience with behaviourally tricky pupils in a wide range of demographically different schools, you could not be more wrong, and my position and promotions would attest to that.

I'm not sure that position and promotions are ever an indicator of a teacher's ability to understand children and make good judgements about parenting they don't see.

You've made a sweeping judgement about parents who make a decision not to double punish and those parents include people I know who also have senior positions in the teaching profession.

In my experience, teachers who make sweeping judgements about parents with minimal evidence are prone to confirmation bias and often wrong.

I'm also painfully aware of a large number of children who have been punished in school for behaviour resulting from poor SEND support. To double punish those children would compound the damage to their mental and emotional well-being while doing nothing to change their behaviour or meet their needs more effectively.

It is completely appropriate to respond as a parent in the context of your own expertise in your own child and make an informed decision about how best to support their behaviour in school.

In my opinion, this is usually but not always, to support school sanctions without duplicating them.

OP, I see in your last post that you are still quite punishment / sanctions orientated, despite a lot of alternative suggestions from parents of teens here.

Can you discuss some of the suggestions and questions that have been suggested here with your DH?

I guess your own children are younger than your DSS?

Completely agree with graphista and had an almost identical situation when dd was in Y10/11. School constantly blaming the pupils for everything that was wrong with their education. Headteacher causing huge upset and unease amongst the staff, some of whom took out their frustrations on the students. Understandable, but totally unacceptable. OP, I would want to find out from DSS if it is what the teachers are saying that is upsetting him, i.e. he feels it is unjust/unture or simply the way they are saying it (shouty).

Everyone (teachers included) can have an off-day when they might shout at someone. If it's happening frequently, then some questions need to be asked as that's not OK.

Similarly, if he feels they've not understood him or been unjust, he needs to try and talk this through with them calmly. Maybe get him to think about why he responds to Mr X differently to Mr Y ? Ask him to try changing his response and see if the teacher reacts well? (We called this puppetry of the teacher - wasn't really, but it gave DD back the control in some small way which helped )

Sometimes when you have these conversations you can get a good idea as to whether the problem is with the whole school ethos, a personality clash with one or two teachers or an attitude problem with your DC. With my own DD, I quickly established that whole school ethos was the issue, but we were stuck until GCSEs finished, so not ideal. What I found helpful with her was letting her know that I understood that her teachers were not always being reasonable or kind and sometimes they were not correct. Despite this, I expected her to remain respectful. Generally, she did this and I made sure I gave her HUGE praise when she had handled things well. It was sometimes very difficult and very frustrating.

This year has been another story completely, and all the work she put in on trying to understand what makes others tick has really paid off.
Good luck with DSS, OP - I hope things start to improve for him soon.