How do you deal with this behaviour?

[TitsalinaBumSquash]

Tearing my hair out with DS1 (13)

How do you deal with it when they do something which receives a sanction, the sanction is removal of screen time.
Whilst the sanction is still running they constantly behave badly, so it continues longer and longer until it's indefinite ... then I've got nothing as a sanction and they end up getting away with bad behaviour.

I'm so rubbish at this parenting teen thing, I'm so close to walloping him one. ( I won't, I'm just frustrated, I don't use violence against them and never have)

Take his phone off him and stop paying for stuff. He’ll soon realise you‘re in charge.

It doesn’t sound like the sanction is working so maybe you should try a different tack? A different sanction or a different plan altogether. Is there anything behind the behaviour, apart from general teenager?!

Is screetime removal your only ‘weapon’ at the moment? I use it too and if I get lip I go: right, no internet from 7. Ok, from 6 pm then. One more word and I’ll make it 4 pm.
‘I’ll take the skateboard to work’
No pocket money for xxx
No to going to the cinema with friends.

But that’s my last card. I normally ‘nag’ and have stern words.

No tech until dishes /chores are done kills 2 birds ime.

I’ve found that I don’t remove devices for a set amount of time.
They are given back sooner as per my ds behaviour.
For instance his phone was taken away Sat morning and depending on his behaviour throughout the day I would then decide when he could have it back.
This seems to work quicker and better than previously when I would take it away for say 1 week.

Usually the rule is no screens until medication and basic chores are done, (room tidyish and school stuff ready for next day.)
Despite being consistent if we say that he's got no screen time we'll get a barrage of "yes I have, I'm going on it anyway, PLEASE MUM, I'll behave"
He stops his siblings doing anything by being a constant loud, in your face presence when they're trying to do anything while he's banned from screens, so this will lead to me saying that if he continues to antagonise he will lose it for a second day which eventually becomes a third, forth ..... until he just shrugs and decided she's banned for so long he doesn't care anymore and yes it's my only weapon, he doesn't care about being grounded, he has no money for a while after smashing his friends phone screen which we had to replace and he doesn't have any hobbies that he'd be upset at the thought of missing out on so I find myself thinking that I've got nothing to put forward as a consequence so he ends up getting away with whatever he's doing.

It's so draining, fairly sure it's teenage stuff because he goes from being my fairly nice but clingy little boy to a stroppy, snappy arse. I wish I had another strategy.

What are you sanctioning him for?

Usually either going directly against rules (like sneaking the game upstairs) or upsetting his siblings by swearing at them or being violent to them, DS2 has HFASD and DS1 calling him a shit head or a fucking idiot sends him into meltdown, I have to,d DS1that it is NOT ok to speak like that full stop, let alone at his younger brother.

Hmmm, not sure, it is a funny age where they rebel and strive for independence!

I have two teen boys, I never sanction/punish them, does that sound weird?!

Not sure what my method is though , I definitely have to tell them off at times and we do argue over things.

If my 13yr old behaves in a way that is not ok, I will stop what I am doing and we'll talk about why it is not ok or why it upsets me/others. That sounds quite weak/wet but it often resolves things.

What does your DS do exactly that makes you give him a sanction? Can you give an example?

It's hard because a consequence directly related to their actions often holds more weight. I have to separate my eldest 2 for similar reasons

We also get a lot of refusal to do things, like getting uniform on, going to bed when asked, taking his medication on time, they're not sanctioned but bloody frustrating when he's just ignoring me or refusing or dithering.

With the bad language, I'd have a chat with him about how childish it is, a bit like a tiddler calling someone a poopoo-head, I'd tell him I expect a less childish attitude, might even laugh at him and his "rude words"

About uniform, would he go to school in.his PJs???

Yup, tell him to stop acting like a little boy.

No he wouldn't, he has to get the train or be driven, today he's an hour late to school because he's not got himself ready so I've told him he'll be in bed an hour early, he doesn't care, he's thrilled to have an extra hour at home but short of picking him up and putting him in the car in his pjs I can't force him in on time.

I've told him countless times his clingy babyish behaviour isn't endearing at all and I'd much rather converse with my 13 year old son.

Have a look at something like The Explosive Child and try a different way?
It doesn't sound like traditional parenting is working with him.

Piling sanction on top of sanction on top of sanction does not work. I think if you say that you are going to take away the game from 4-8pm, then that is the sanction. Its OK if he kicks off, the sanction holds. As you have seen, increasing the sanction only leads to worse behaviour.

I think if you look at natural vs logical consequences as an alternative.

A natural consequence is something that happens without any intervention from you.

Natural consequences for not getting up and going to school is that the next day you have to explain yourself to the school, who will already know that you refused to come in.

Logical consequence - this is something imposed by your that is logically linked to the issue.

The natural and logical consequence of him teasing your other child to the point of meltdown is that whatever the plan was for that day, its gone out the window while everyone deals with the melting one. As in "oh what a shame, we cant go to the park now because billy is really upset. " Or "sorry I don't have time to switch the internet back on, I am dealing with Billy. It seems you wanted to upset him and call him names, so I wonder if you really didnt want to go on the internet after all. Oh you did? Well thats very confusing because you knew what would happen if you wound up your brother."

Or "Im sorry I cant look for your football boots, I am dealing with Billy."

I would also implement a screen bar with immediate effect from 7am to 6pm, school days, for all kids. This is not a sanction, its stating that there is a problem, people are becoming a little it crazy because they arent getting out in the fresh air and running about, so you've decided that this is going to help everyone get out in the fresh air. Not negotiable. Staying at home all day is a lot more boring if there is nothing to watch or do.

The reaction will be severe for the first week, batten down the hatches. but then will become the new normal.

This is all helpful. I shall have a sit down with DH and discuss how to proceed. Thank you.

He should not have the option of you taking him to school an hour later (like a patient chauffeur waiting for her master)

You need to go out just after it's time to leave for school. That way he faces the natural consequences (being late, having to make his own way to school)

If he knows you are there on stand-by, he can and will take the piss

I do not punish my kids, but they do face natural consequences (forgetting their keys and having to wait an hour outside, for me to get home, or not having the ingredients for food tech, not going on camp as they faffed about with handing in the form and missed the deadline, and missing the bus in the morning= taking normal.bus into town then walking 30 mins+ facing consequence at school for lateness.)

They learned a lot from these "natural consequences" but you must not always be there to pick up the pieces! Go out and lwt them face life

I've two teenage sons, at one point the eldest was being very unpleasant to the younger who has ASD/HFA. All the time. We did a lot of positive reinforcement, it turned out ds was having a tough time at school and was also receiving a lot of sanctions there and his screen time was his retreat from the big bad world. I suppose we had to turn it around so he had some down time by himself but also felt supported by us as a family rather than just told off all the time.

So in a nutshell, love bombing helped ds be less unpleasant. He was really lacking in self esteem, and so finding things he was good at, helped him behave better (in his case he was v g at singing, and liked all school residentials, so we encouraged that)

I suppose focusing on sanctions took away from the bigger issues, and made him feel ashamed and angry.

How to talk so Teens will listen by Faber and Mazlish.

I'd be really careful about the transitions too, you might have a case of school refusal if you create a lot of tension in the morning about getting ready, better to reinforce in a positive way too, if you can. lots of tlc first thing when they wake up, we give nice breakfasts, and put up with a a bit of surliness, and all bounce off to school now and are very organised with their possessions despite being naturally untidy and this house being VERY untidy.

I forgot to say the eldest has Dyspraxia or DCD, and with that went a few communication ishoos, is that a possibility that your eldest has some difficulty knowing just how to get on with his brother, rather than just sheer unpleasantness. Mine had to be taught to have a reciprocal conversation/the right body language to each other at that age, whereas when they were little, it was just bearcubs in the forest and quite straightforward!

also beware of saying you don't like him being clingy or wanting to stay at home with you, acknowledge his feelings rather than disparage them.

Imagine if you were being a bit teary when a friend or partner was saying goodbye and they said...oh you are being embarassing.
How would that make you feel?

The eldest always gets a bit of a rough ride, they are expected to be grownup in a way that the younger ones never get asked to be, at the same age.

Yes, hugs and positive (genuine) feedback and attention are very important to teens

And self esteem can be wobbly, so a bit of well judged honest praise can go a long way