Depression and discipline

[Dancergirl]

My middle dd (15) has been suffering from some sort of depression/anxiety for a while. Nothing formally diagnosed yet, we have seen GP, she is on the waiting list for CAMHS and we are looking into seeing someone privately.

She often feels very down, dislikes herself, lots of tears and tantrums/meltdowns Her behaviour and attitude to the rest of the family is awful and we are also suffering the effects. She can be rude and cheeky to both me and dh, and downright nasty to her younger sister. On Sunday we had yet another family day out spoilt by her refusal to shower and get ready, then had a tantrum because we were at the door waiting to go out. Followed by sulky behaviour in the restaurant.

The question is how to deal with it? I know she is feeling very fragile and I don't want to make her feel even worse about herself, but on the other hand I don't want to allow this sort of behaviour that impacts on others.

Any advice please?

I know she is feeling very fragile and I don't want to make her feel even worse about herself, but on the other hand I don't want to allow this sort of behaviour that impacts on others. Tell her this, over and over.

She has every right to feel what she feels but not to inflict bad behaviour on others as a result of her moods. It's important for her to learn the distinction between acknowledging not suppressing her feelings, and using them as weapons to bully others.

Allowing her depression to dictate the mood of the entire household will only make her feel worse, not better.

Try and very gently encourage her to practise behaving in a way that is kind and respectful to herself and to others, despite how she feels. If she ends up coping with lifelong depression(and I hope she doesn't) then one of the key ways to manage it is to say to yourself: I have no desire to bathe but I'll bathe anyway. I want to scream and hide but I'll behave in a manner more likely to keep friends and family close, that I won't later feel bad about because taking these actions I don't want to take will help me feel better about myself and my situation.

Thank you both, feed I agree with every word you say but it's hard to put it into practice.

She knows only too well she's behaving badly, then of course she's on that downward spiral and feels worse about herself.

Should there be consequences for poor behaviour eg phone removal? I feel we've been too lax and let her get away with things.

It’s tricky to know what consequences to impose - I tend to try and make things relevant to the behaviour and therefore I only remove the phone if it’s the phone that is causing the problem. With arguments etc I tend to get the person to go to a chill out zone till they feel a bit more able to share time and space with other people. If they are rude or disrespectful to me, I ignore communications until they speak to me with respect. If they waste my time, I make them do a chore that gives me my time back....wile trying to remain calm and continuing to be kind.

I only ever link consequences directly with behaviour. So I'd only remove a phone if it had been used to send nasty messages, for example, or kept her up until 3am when she needs sleep.

Don't want to oversimplify but in some ways, ime, teens revert to being abit like toddlers. They are so at the mercy of their raging hormones and tantrumming emotions and trying so desperately to be more grown up than they are. It helps to just diffuse brewing storms, or if they happen, just comfort them and give them a safe place to calm down in their own time.

I have been where you are at and my god it's hard!
I was ALWAYS putting up with bad behaviour as I was frightened of her depression and what of she might do.
I did finally use consequences when he actions caused me great worry and distress, but I was careful to point out I wasn't taking away the IPad because of her behaviour (which she said she couldn't help) but because if the impact she had on me... IYSWIM, it did make her more aware of the impact of her actions on others, saying all that, years later we are still struggling with it all

Ps
Do make sure you get a therapist she likes and is comfortable with, good ones will let you 'try before you buy' as my daughter wasted a lot of time telling the wrong therapist what she thought she wanted to hear

I actually think teenagers feel safer when boundaries are maintained. I absolutely agree with accepting the child, reminding them you love them but not accepting the behaviour.
At 15 if she doesn’t shower and get ready, go out without her.
If she’s rude at mealtimes take her supper and put it in the bin - after a known 1/2/3 warnings.

You could use a card system whereby they get the yellow card as a first warning their behaviour is deteriorating, a red car as finial warning and third time sanction is imposed.
I would try to make sanctions relevant too. No point taking a phone away for hitting but if the child is texting through a meal, then they lose it. I’d tell them what the sanction is at yellow card stage.
I’d also be looking to catch them being good and give positive feedback. Also one to one mummy time - making cakes, going to a film that her sister is too young for, lunch out orveven just a hot chocolate and chat after school?

I only ever link consequences directly with behaviour

So what do you do if she is nasty to her younger sister? Or if she's rude to me or dh and you wait for her to start being respectful before you engage....is that really enough of a message that being rude is unacceptable?

rolltop we really did consider leaving her behind on Sunday. But we thought the consequences would be far worse - leaving a tearful, upset 15 year old in the midst of meltdown at home alone for 3-4 hours. She really wanted to see the film we were seeing and she would have felt rubbish about herself for ages. I thought it would boost her self-esteem to know we were prepared to wait for her and make her feel valued. But maybe I've got that all wrong!

God, it's such hard work. I feel so emotionally drained a lot of the time.

I do try and make time for 1-to-1 time with her when I can.

No. When one DC was nasty to the other, I'd sit them down and mimic their behaviour. I'd shriek what they'd shrieked with the same amount of venom as they shrieked it and then ask how they felt when I did it. This always worked. Or on the (very rare) occasions they got physical I'd ask them what sort of mum they'd think I was if I pinched them/hit them/stole their toys. I'd make them answer then say that that's how they just came over to their sibling and to everyone watching, but I know they are really a kind, loving person who doesn't mean to be mean. Then ask them what would be a nice way of making their sibling feel better and praise them when they do it. Bit time consuming but totally diffuses power struggles and fights and sulks and tantrums.

you wait for her to start being respectful before you engage....is that really enough of a message that being rude is unacceptable? But she knows she is being rude, she know it's unacceptable, she has to learn that when she is rude she doesn't get rewarded with what she wants, she needs to be polite to get what she wants. And when you don't engage you don't feed the tantrum and make it worse/last longer - you withdraw from it, giving her the space to calm down.
When she is nasty to her sister, I'd ask her to go find a quiet place away from her sister to calm down - with ds, it's his bedroom and i tell him to stay there until he can be a bit more human again, he has now learned to ask for space to calm down before hitting tantrum stage. Then I'd expect her to apologise to whoever she upset and then drop it, big smile move on.
Kids need to learn to self regulate their emotions, empathise with other people, understand their actions have consequences on others, often I think punishments just make them feel more resentful and feel even more sorry for themselves, rather than being sorry for their actions. I confiscate mobile phones when the dcs are distracted by them and have caused a delay in completing another task. I don't like grounding as it can cause bad feeling over a long period of time and upset family harmony especially with a sulky child.

"You feeling bad does not mean you get to treat other people badly" in a calm broken record way.

Teen DD has to put this msg into repeat mode with one of her friends, too.

sorry... posted too soon. But add "I'm always hear to listen" in broken record mode, too. And really listen. Try not to advise.

Try not to advise

You are so right about this. I fell into the trap of advising dd what to do, or should have done, to be met with a sulky 'you're so annoying'.

So just listen and empathise right?

Can you lower your expectations.

It is not easy to behave in a normal manner when you are depressed. Try to think of her as being ill.

Can you arrange things so that you or your husbands take it in turns to stay home and the rest of you have a nice day out. Rotate doing this so you both get a break.

Try and encourage healthy eating, sleep, gentle exercise and sunshine. Being rude to people is not ok. Anything else can slide. And if she wants to spend some days in her room eating chocolate then that's ok. Try again tomorrow to suggest going for a walk. Baby steps.

I know it is incredibly hard and I really feel for you but with love and understanding she will get through this.

Is she having counselling? She needs some. Also consider family counselling.

I don't suggest family counselling as if the family is the cause of the problem, by the way. Just that it might be good for the family as a whole to have some support in this difficult time. It can really improve communication between families.

@orangesticker I agree with your post totally. That way of dealing with things really works for us. DCs friends all say we're such a calm family. Well not by nature...

Thank you all so much, this is really helpful.

orange if I ask her to go somewhere to calm down when she's being mean to her sister....what if she refuses? Or sits there sulkily at the dinner table and refuses to leave? I can't physically make her.

No you can't, you can't force your kids to do anything but when you stop poking the problem with a stick, most kids do want to please their parents, you can ask and then if she refuses to leave you can refuse to engage further in dialogue - she can't argue with herself, so the fire burns itself out very quickly.
Be sure not to suggest the removing is punishment - it's meant to be a breather - to remove the stimulants and help her calm down again - it will take a while for her to learn that removing herself from the environment is the best thing for her too. The aim is that she learns to self regulate her emotions and make family life a bit more harmonious...punishing her will not achieve that.

Thank you so much, that sounds like good advice.

bitey she is on the waiting list at CAMHS but we will probably go down the private route.