friends excluding

[Mavis17]

My DD confidence is taking a battering, she is kind, lovely, caring, intelligent, amazing and beautiful( yes I know I am her mum but other parents have told me so too) She is very mature for her age and head girl at school. But she is lonely, we have done all the join clubs find other people that have the same interest but she would like one close friend.She does not trust any of the girls in her year and refuses to be involved in talking about others/drinking/drugs and is often the voice of reason this may not help and she is aware of this. She has older friends out of school. very active club wise out of school.
She is doing amazingly well at school but she seems to be focusing now on feeling 'left out' and says what is the use of being clever doing well if nobody wants to be my friend. She is excluded from parties, social media, lunchtime groups and when she has asked other to do things they are busy etc to the point she has now given up asking. She has this amazing nothing is getting me down attitude most of the time and is determined to go to the school prom alone because nobody is going to ask me to join them. I do worry that this is going to effect her long term with friendship and trust as she is not ale to get why people are just not kind. I know she is not alone but I am really struggling with trying to help her. She thinks I am an amazing mum with all my straight talking but we have had tears tonight (party for most of the yr this w/e not her) other than hugs I am all out of ideas.
Does anyone have any advice on how I can help her at all - I feel for her, I really do, but I can't make others like her.
It doesn't help when you see all the pics on Facebook of other girls from school in large groups out and about enjoying themselves

I find it difficult to believe that a "kind, lovely, caring, intelligent" person at the end of school, has not been able to find one single person in her school that she can get on with socially.
(I know there are some dc that struggle with social interaction, but this isn't the picture you are painting of your dd).

Why doesn't she trust anyone ?

Even a fairly small secondary school will have plenty of different "types" of dc, and people are usually able to find others they can rub along with. One of my dds is certainly not in to any 'dressing up' / fashion / make up / eyebrow shaping / celebrity gossip or anything else supposedly "typical" of teen girls, but she has never struggled to find other people like herself to spend time with.

You do even seem to be hinting yourself that she is excluding herself rather than making an effort to be friendly to others. It would be quite interesting to hear from the other side of this, to hear how she presents to other pupils at school.

Why doesn’t she trust the girls in her year? I assume she’s year 13 if head girl so she won’t have long to go. If she’s younger then a change at sixth form?
My dd isn’t very socially active, & she’s a bit quirky, but she at least has a group to hang with at school and 3-4 good friends possibly!!

She just has to ride it out. It's not forever.

Backforgood and Justdance, your posts sadly show an incredible lack of understanding - OP, let me regail you with my experience which I think you'll find frighteningly similar.

DD in Yr 7 and 8 had wide group of friends and one full on BFF to use the modern vernacular. Then nasty girl joined this group (manipulative, not very pleasant). Had the power to say who was in and who was out of the group. My DD was out. Lost her BFF, lost the group, lost all groups.

Then had a good solid friendship with another girl, she went off to another group and my DD wasn't invited to so to speak. Repeat once again just in recent weeks.

My DD too is lively, sociable, whacky, outgoing, loves to laugh, and is a very good and thoughtful friend. For all your casting aspertions on OPs DD - you simply don't understand that the power of 'the group' is everything. EVERYTHING. Other kids are so afraid of being picked on to be the one that gets ousted that whilst they might be nice to my DD on a 1:1 basis, when they are in that group they bareley speak to our acknowledge my DD - so in effect, two-faced and unwilling to stand up for what is right and how people should actually be treated.

My DD refuses to sit with them because 1. they make her feel like inconsequential shit, a no one, not included, of no value and 2. because they (as a group) are catty, bitchy little madams and she doesn't want to mix in a group of people like that - why should she especially when it ruins what little shreds of self esteem she's got left? She's exercising a mature evaluation of the situation and saying no that's not acceptable to me and fair play to her for that.

The upshot though is she's currently spending her breaks and lunches in a toilet cubicle because she has no one to hang with or walk round school with or eat her lunch with or go to the cafeteria with.

I totally feel for your DD OP, I'm in the same situation. It's almost impossible to help (or that's what I've found). My DD too because of a variety of family stuff has had to mature a lot and I think this is partly why she finds all this 'I'm your friend/not your friend' shit at the age of 15 to be utter bollocks that she wants no part of.

My DD too has no one to go to prom with and she has been SO looking forward to it but the girl she's been close friends with for months has in recent weeks moved over to the bitchy clique and DD wants nothing to do with all of that.

What's the answer? I'm not sure - but it's no fun for her or for me that's for sure and I totally feel for you OP. And for your poor DD.

From a different and maybe completely wrong perspective I will share with you a similar situation that my daughter has been part of at school. She was friendly with a girl in primary school but really distances herself from her in secondary school and many others did the same. The girl’s mother was understandably very upset as was the girl

It came to a head when everyone refused to be in a group with the girl for a School residential trip. I spoke to my daughter and asked why this girl was being excluded she explained that she had alienated herself by being quite unkind to the other girls (I believe without realising) an example is she would ask my daughter to spell something simple, my daughter would get it wrong (she is dyslexic) this girl would then laugh and take the piss. She would comment to other girls ‘Why do you live in a small house? Are you poor?’ ‘Why are you fat? Do you eat too much?’ My daughter said it was constant, putting others down to make herself feel better.

I believe it comes from lack of confidence maybe. These are extreme examples of things that this girl said but it may be an idea to ask other parents to ask their daughters why she is excluded? This girl was completely unaware of how she made others feel. You may not like the answers you receive but it may help to understand behaviour. This may not be the case at all with your daughter obviously.

And, sadly, one of the best mums I get on really well with have always thought she's v down to earth, solid, fair and v aware of how girls can be and is very no nonsense. I reached out to her (second time I've done this but the previous time as a different mother). In the end the first one I reached out to at the time of the split with the major BFF was evasive, lied, pretended she'd help and then did sweet FA to help a situation that could possibly have been resolved. I asked her, has my DD done something to offend because if so I want to know. Of course I never found out so was a bit difficult to address the possible 'reason'.

Reaching out this time to this other mum I thought was solid as her DD and my DD have been good friends throughout primary and secondary but not BFFs. Said does she know anything can she help and said v clearly I wasn't in any way singling her DD out (talked about the power of the 'group' and explained how that works) and that her DD is great with mine when they are 1:1 but treats her quite differently when she's in with that group of girls. Result? You wanna guess?

Fucking radio silence. So if the parents can't be arsed to give their kids a pair of balls / a telling off about being flaky and inconsistent with friendship and how wrong that is, the kids aren't going to do it themselves.

I don't know what the answer is I really don't.

Keepon - it isn't a lack of understanding. I'm sorry your dd is unhappy, but it is part of all of our jobs as parents to help them find a solution. the very fact you are talking about 'The Group being everything' is actually part of the issue. Not all of our dc fit (or even want to fit) in to this image of 'the popular girls group. Some do, but we need to help them find "their tribe", and show them it is about being true to themselves and not putting everything into trying to make themselves liked by 'the group"

Well that's exactly what I'm saying Back! My DD doesn't want to be part of some hideous clique! And she IS being true to herself by not joining in with them. The result of that is utter, abject loneliness and isolation.

I already said she doesn't want to be liked by the group and doesn't like the group so.... the end result is still that she is on her own!

Girls at this age are hideous! Your DD sounds lovely and presumably is nearing the end of school. I'm sure once she goes to college/ uni/work/travel she can leave behind all the shit that goes on at school and enjoy her life and will make friends as she becomes an adult. Tell her to hang in there and things will get better once she leaves the nasty world of school behind.

Gosh this thread is so sad. Hate to think of kids on their own. I was so lucky at school lots of friends , never gave it a second thought. But now I look back and remember girls on their own and I could kick myself. My only suggestion is to keep telling your DD how fab she is and that it won’t always be like this

You know MrsGrindah, I used to (not in a self satisfied up my own ass way) but in genuine happiness (and misplaced innocent happiness I might say) I used to think gosh isn't it fabulous, DD has lots of mates and she used to go off and about swimming and to all kinds of activities - and then wham, bam, she suddenly had NO friends at all. None.

Are you there Mavis, how has your DD's week been this week?

I just know these lovely girls will find their place somewhere

I had personal experience of this, I have now only as an adult begin to realise that these girls simply lack confidence and are not aware of the effects the behaviour of the ‘group’ can have.

I can see it happening already with my daughter and she just doesn’t understand that they just don’t realise the consequence of their actions and that they don’t have the self confidence that she does and shouldn’t take it personally.

For example members of the ‘group’ often blindly follow or don’t dare rock the boat so the ‘it’s not my place to say’ often kicks in.
They don’t have the confidence to enter a room or activity and introduce themselves or say anything controversial (such as no), so stick to those they know and feel safe with.

My best advice is be a fantastic friend to your daughter, keep her self confidence high and explain that it’s just down to lack of confidence on others parts.
She mustn’t take it personally and should just focus on studies in school and social life outside.
In hindsight I would have let more things slide, I’m very outspoken and if I disagreed with something I’d say (still do but I’ve worked on my tact). Selfies, shopping, fads/obsessions have never been my thing so I’d have passed on these things, perhaps I’d have helped myself more to go along with things slightly more.

It's funny you say this Waddling about not being so black and white about what you will and won't accept and I did say exactly this during one of my at work - toilet cubicle conversations with DD just the other day. I also said if you choose not to sit with them then you need to accept that that means you being on your own in a toilet for every break and lunchtime - she was v clear she'd rather spend her life in a toilet than sit with them because she thinks they ARE that awful. So fair play to her but the consequences are really quite severe - it means that's the only way she can manage it, it to cut herself off - because as you say, these group girls just don't have a clue and even if they do, risking being singled out is something they aren't willing to do. Better it be someone else...

It’s exactly that, and probably at the same age I was just as stubborn. In fact I know I was. I thought the tittle tattle, bitching and boys talk was so ridiculously insignificant I’d rather be elsewhere.
I do wish I’d been less rigid in my views, there’s no way I would have taken part in bitching and I would probably still have to say something but I think I’d have faired better if I’d stuck it out and just been more tactful in doing so.
I know for myself I simply didn’t value or want their friendship, I felt they were sheep.

Actually keep on if Mavis has explained like you did, the reasons for the fallings out then it would make more sense, but she just said she doesn’t trust the girls without saying why.

I know someone who’s daughter had the same experience of falling out with her bff and then being effectively excluded. They moved her to another school, but this was nearer the beginning. I think if my DD had no friends at school and if I could move her, then I would have. If it was too late then she’d have to ride it out (change at sixth form). There’s still school movement where I am throughout the years, even in year 10.

From experience parents never want to talk about their child’s behaviour with other mums! I have been in this position with my dd in primary and the mum gave every excuse under the sun for why her dd was excluding mine (and not behaving well to some others) but didn’t want to take pains to solve it.
At secondary you often don’t know the parents so it’s not even an option.

DD went for Head Girl. One of her besties got it.

The HG has had so many doubts & is feeling huge pressure from the position, seriously considered quitting a few times. The HG can't get away with any 'bad' behaviour that other kids do routinely. DD thinks she dodged a bullet by not being HG!! DD & her mates aren't shunning the HG, but they are suddenly aware that everything they do is modified by the HG being there.

Plus there was a week or 2 of HG falling out with a friend b/c of jealousy from other girl who also wanted to be HG... I get a lot of gossip from DD, you can tell.

Sorry it's tough, but only 8 months to go & they are out of there.
(I assumed this was Yr11 age?)

Yes, we're in GCSE years so moving wouldn't be the best idea at the moment (removing and home schooling or part removal could be an option if it didn't improve I suppose).

I think any child is fine to back off a bit from someone who's has been unpleasant to them, but if you're friends with this person from primary but treat them differently 1:1 than you do in a group, that's something I'd want to know about and if a parent raised it to me, I'd want to get to the bottom of it. If you don't like someone (genuinely) you don't like them all the time - they're not ok to engage with on some occasions but not on others.

The last two friends my DD removed herself from those relationships. The first one was a teen NPD and the other kept saying nasty things to her so quite rightly she thought stuff this, I'm off.

a huge big thank you every body and I really sorry not to have surfaced before now. One hell of a week and not with DD. Keep on working your are so spot on and i do really feel for you and DD. We are talking yr 11.Keehar some are hideous not all though and my DD is tolerant of all. So much so she wants to work with troubled teens.She is involved in lots of things in school, parents eve could not have been more amazing across the board apparently she is respected and looked up to by other pupils. She really is not able to see this. she does have yr 12 friends out of school and values these greatly. We have talked about appearing to be more out going in school but she finds this hard.The lack of trust comes from the girls talking about others and she refuses to do this. Mrsgrinder i to feel these lovely girls will find a way and that is what keeps me going. She does have some social media but not facebook and will not post selfies. I have to say I am quiet please about that in some way. Last week she came home really happy somebody had actually asked where she was in the refrectory and several people asked to team up in a lesson. simple things but big effect. i have been away from mumsnet for while but really glad i came back to not feel so alone in this.