10 yr old ds - violent and depressed - please advise me

[sixlostmonkeys]

I'm a reg mumsnetter but I've changed my nick for this post - at least I think i have...I can't get my head around things at the mo.
Although I'm posting in the teenage section, my ds is only 10, but I reckoned this is the best section to post.
I really need some advice.
I've had to wait till ds fell asleep before I could log on. It's been a long night.
I'll try and keep it brief...but... ds behaviour started changing about a year ago. He started with fits of really bad behaviour, all aimed towrds me, he's still fine at school. He gets voilent and uncontrollable.
It's got really bad now but what is worrying me more is he is showing all the signs an adult would who is suffering from depression. he says he wants to kill himself.
he has no worries, eg bullying. he does well at school and is popular. We have a good simple life. Money is tight but he has all a 10 yr old could want. there is just me. I spend all my time with him and have always made sure we go out a lot, exploring, bike riding etc. We play games together and cook together. Sorry, just trying to paint a picture.
There is no calming or reasoning with him when he has one of his outbursts. There is also no obvious trigger to them. Tonight for example - we were in the room, playing games, chatting, putting up xmas decs, then, while he was next to me on the sofa he elbowed me in the face. I asked to to be careful and not do it again. He then purposely did it again very hard. Instinctively I got hold of his arm to take it away from my face, and then he just let rip.
he spent the next 90 minutes hitting me, kicking, throwing things at me and grabbing knives and other objects to threaten me. I did , as I always do, all the things I believe I should do - try to calm him, talk calmly and quietly, ask him to sit down and calm down, ask him why he is doing it. I've tried holding him close to calm him but he lashes out so much that ultimately I think this could result in injury. although he is only 10 he is physically stronger than me and I have arthritis which doesnt help.
It was only when he threw a bottle at me that hurt my chest that he seemed to snap out of the rage. he saw I was hurt and panicked. he then switched to being so unbelievably sad - saying he doesn't know why he feels this way.

I need help.

I think I'm going to see a doctor tomorrow for advice, but I'm so worried that once we get into the system it could spiral out of my control.
can anyone advise me please.

sorry, no practical advice but didn't want your thread to drop off the boards.

I hope you get pointed in the right direction at the GP's office tomorrow

Hiya. Sounds tough . These are very strong emotions for a 10 year old to cope with, and difficult behaviour for you to manage. My guess is that your ds really doesn't know why this happens, and he's probably every bit as confused and frightened as you are.

I have no advice, really, except better to seek support now.

Can I ask about the father?

Does he have a male role model?
Has he witnessed violence before?
So sorry you're going throught this,it does sound like he has real anger management problems and needs help with it.
You sound like a lovely mum and getting outside help is the right thing to do .

I agree if is saying he wants to kill himself and is very violent you are right to get professional help. This is not something you should try to deal with on your own. Tackle it now while you can.

if he doesn't see his dad maybe it has stemmed from this? he is older now and probably has more of an opinion on this. this is the exact thing i dread with ds cos his dad isnt on the scene either. maybe he blames you for some reason that his dad isn't around?

i am ashamed to say i was like this to my mum and to this day i still don't know why. i used to just get so frustrated. my step-dad thinks it comes from people rejecting me when i was younger. my sister used to blame me for dad leaving (he didnt want another baby), my grandparents used to dote on my brother and sister, but never me - i think something to do with the fact i wasn't really wanted. my mum used to push me away when i went for cuddles etc. i only really had my step dad who made me feel loved. now from your post this is not the case for you, but there is obviously some underlying reason. he could feel rejected by his dad maybe? i wish my mum had done something about it and had me done some sort of anger management. it is only since having ds i have been able to control my temper more. i could completely be barking up the wrong tree as i dont have much info but those are my thoughts hth xx

Does he remember it afterwards? A girl in DS school was almost expelled last year for episodes in school but it turned out to be a form of epilepsy. Don't know any more but she is still at school.

good luck at the doctors today, his moods do seem very extreme, but I've got an 8 yr old ds who can get very moody and I don't know how far these moods go.

I thought it was just girls who are affected by hormones (stupid me!!).

let us know how you get on.

is there any teachers at his school you get on with well you could ask for advice?

is your ds at any teams eg. rugby, football that are run by men? maybe one of them could help eg. have a word with your ds?

you sound like you're coping with a lot by yourself, is there anyone to help you out?

sorry too many questions!

good luck today

ssd x x x

DS2 can be like this sometimes. Not violent towards me but uncontrollable and unexpected rages. Part of it is his personality (very forceful and determined) and part of it is hormones (he's just turned 11).

However, what you describe seems to go beyond my experiences and I do think you are right to get professional help. I took DS2 to the gp because of his rages, only to be told that he sounded perfectly normal! So don't be disappointed if you don't get the help you need. Perhaps you need to lay it on really thick to persuade the gp that this is a serious issue. The violence is worrying, particularly that he did it deliberately when he'd hurt you.

It does sound a bit like depression so maybe the gp can help turn things around. I don't know your background, so perhaps his rages are triggered by what has happened in the past.

Bump for you. Have you got an appt yet?

Thank you all for your responses. It helped me this morning to read these replies - just knowing someone has heard me.

I intended going to the gp on my own but ds woke up and immediately started shouting "I'm fed up. I'm fed up" he refused to go to school. He has never done that before.
We both went to the gp who is now going to arrange an appointment for therapy.
Ds agreed to go to school after the gp so I called in and had a chat with the head. I've asked her to just keep an eye on him, and Ive put her in the picture. I also mentioned some issues with school that I feel may be part of the problem. A lot of it is the teachers' attitude towards the children and ds has had a few incidents lately where I know he feels there have been injustices aimed at him.
I think this is only part of the problem and I feel many of you have picked up on what the other parts could be. Maybe hormones are kicking in - that could account for him not knowing why he feels this way.
He has no male role model. he has never known his dad, and he never asks about him. I need to seek professional advice though before I attempt to bring the subject up with him. I've always gone along with the rule of only answering the question a child asks as at times too much info can only serve to confuse a child - iyswim.
I think another part of the problem is that there are no friends for him at home. Whilst I've recognised this problem for a while now I've still no idea how I can solve this problem - apart from forcing families to move into my street I do try to help compensate by driving him to a friends house who moved out of the area earlier in the year and having his friend round here whenever possible. I'll have to try and do more along these lines I think.

So, it seems there a number of issues troubling him and hopefully a professional will be able to help me sort through them with him. Anyone ever had dealings with these therapists?

Just trying to answer all your questions here (and I do really appreciate you all taking the time and showing an interest) - ds has never witnessed any violence. As I said, he has never known his dad, but his dad was violent - I found this out all too late and I was moved to this house due to domestic violence. I don't know if ds has ever overheard any conversation where the violence was mentioned, he has never said so. I shudder to think that it is in the genes. I have considered the possibility that it could be my personality that brings out the violent behaviour in people but really, that's just daft isn't it? No one else has ever been violent with me.
And the final answer (I think) no, I don't have anyone I can turn to for help - just you lot

I have no advice really other than to agree with that a male role model sounds like a good idea.

What about him joining some sort of sports club/team? Football on a sunday morning, that sort of thing, a male dominated activity iyswim.

Going to the GP was definately the right thing to do . Hopefully it will be the start of the process to getting things sorted out for you both.

I hope you dont have to wait too long for the therapy appointment. Call them back if you need to.

I do find that DS2's temper is far worse if he hasn't had any physical activity. He plays a lot of sports, his favourite being rugby (possibly because he can get away with flinging himself bodily at another person!). On the weeks when he hasn't been able to play sports, through injury or bad weather, his temper has been a lot easier to provoke and more extreme.

Getting him involved with some physical activity might help him express some of the feelings that he probably can't even put a name to. Not knowing why you behave in a certain way can be very frightening and possibly even exacerbates how he feels.

On another tack, is anything being said at school about, say, being a mummy's boy? The fact that he has no dad around, whilst not unusual these days, might have provoked some comments.

Just had a call from the therapist at the hospital - they want to see him before xmas so we have an appointment for thursday morning.

I've been thinking of looking for some activities he can go to because as you both say, a male role model and some phyisical activity could do him good. he has recently been opting out of activities he did at school, orchestra etc - I need to get to the bottom of this.
Not sure what clubs to go for, the problem being he can't do something like football or rugby because he has a hip problem (seeing specialist but still don't know what the prob is)

Good luck, glad the referral has come through for before christmas.

Just one thought from your original post - you say he spent 90 mins throwing things at you, threatening, etc; I'm afraid I wouldn't stick around five minutes for that behaviour! The very fact that you (very caringly) stay with him and try to calm him by talking, is probably making these episodes carry on longer I think. You become the target and the focus. If it were me I would get him in his room (better he trash that than hurt you) or if it was totally impossible to do that I would tell him clearly that I didn't want to be with him when he was being so horrible, and I'd take myself off to MY room, even going so far as to hold the door shut if he decided to follow.

I echo the others who think he needs some male input in his life; and I do think that although to us as adults it seems simple and clear that he has never known his dad (so it can't be as much of a problem as if his dad had left him) in fact this can be very difficult for kids. As they mature they have to get used to the situation again because they can look at it differently at each stage of their development. And he is at an age where a dad can be a BIG influence....he may well be struggling with this more than you think. Or he may not! Obviously you know him best....but it's worth a thought.

good luck with it.

I understand why he can't do rugby etc if he has something wrong with his hip, but is it poss. he could try martial arts?
Most karate lessons consist of a long warmup, lots of gentle stretches, followed by learning to punch and kick (pads, not each other!) A good teacher will if necessary adjust the exercises to suit your son.
My ds is mad keen on karate, but rubbish at all team games, and he also is a lot calmer if he gets lots of that type of exercise.
Martial arts are brilliant at helping kids who may be aggressive by giving them a focus, but more importantly, teaching them self discipline and respect for others.
On the friends side, maybe you could invite his second best/third best friends round for tea?

So pleased that you have got an appointment before Xmas!

Would joining scouts be an option?

I have a ds(10). He has a very quick temper (always has) but school and friends would never guess. Always holds it together for other people.

Wishing you all the luck in the world xxx

Thats excellent that you have an appointment so soon, Im sure it will a lot easier for you both to cope with now that you are getting help.

Perhaps you could contact the specialist he has been seeing for his hip to get advice on activities/excersise he could be doing.

Keep posting .

Well done on getting help. My teenage daughter had a course of sessions with a counsellor and it was a big help - we are a fairly 'normal' happy family, but she had specific health and emotional problems, and when she told me how unhappy she was I knew I had done as much as I could and that we needed help. I have to admit I had some worries about making things worse, but my daughter found it very useful and seems more at peace with her situation.

sixlostmonkeys, I have a teenage dd with depression and although she has never been violent towards me the rage she feels and expresses is shocking. Her problems do stem from her relationship with her estranged father. Dd has been assessed by a children and families mental health team & is getting to see a psychologist. And although it is early days I am finally beginning to see small changes in her behaviour and am getting my dd back a little at a time.

The fact that your ds is being seen so swiftly is all for the good.

I hope you (and ds) get the support you need. If you'd like to CAT me please do.

Best wishes, winniex