Dealing with increasingly shy and rude almost-teen

[MrsBobHale]

DD was 12 in November, so not quite a teen yet, but I feel this behaviour is the start of the teenage phase, and wondered if more experienced parents of teens could help.

DD has always been quite shy / quiet around new people. She has some communication difficulties which are mild but worse when she's nervous or anxious. I barely notice it at home, but it does affect her a bit in big groups or with people she doesn't know.

When she was much younger (toddler and v young child), I'd often speak for her with strangers or distant family that she didn't know, but I've realised over the years, and on advice of SALT to try to let her do it. It's hard though because I know she really finds it very stressful, and so do the people she's speaking to, who just are trying to make conversation.

There have been times in restaurants where I've tried to encourage her to order, where I honestly think she'd have rather not eaten than spoken to a waiter, but she has been getting loads better in the last year or two, and will occasionally surprise me by being really chatty with people she doesn't know well. At the end of term she volunteered to do a reading at the school carol concert, and she did brilliantly so I really thought she'd turned a corner.

All this week though with family visits and social events she's been worse than ever. She'll happily sit not speaking to anyone, and as soon as anyone from wider family starts to chat (the usual smalltalk - what did you get for Christmas, that sort of thing) She'd just visibly squirm, maybe manage a "don't know" and then clam up.

On Boxing Day I ended up getting really cross with her. It's so rude. She could barely manage a thank you as we were leaving. I know the family are judging her. Their teens are all chatty, outgoing and will talk for ages about what they're up to etc.

One of the people trying to talk to her was a 14yo who's in year 9, who she's seen twice a year all her life. It's not like they are all strangers or much older.

This feels more like that she can't be bothered to make the effort. As we were leaving I took her to one side and whispered that if I didn't hear her say thank you and goodbye, and if she didn't make eye contact as she said it, she would have her phone removed for a day. she managed it, but I really feel at 12 that she should be able to manage social niceties like this without threats.

I don't know if I'm being unfair making her talk to them because I feel her rudeness reflects on me, or if I should continue to force her because she needs to get used to it.

Ooh, my parents used to do this to me.
Called me anti-social repeatedly, harangued me loudly and frequently. They really hated people who weren't highly sociable like them.
I knew full well I didn't measure up, was not the daughter they wanted.

One day when I was about 21 my dad came home from some personality course (Myers-Briggs) and said "I understand you now! You're an introvert!"

(Sigh)

Even an introvert can be polite though lljk.

Hmm. I think it is a mistake to try to force her or threaten sanctions. She has definitely been improving off her own bat - the carol concert reading is a massive step forward for a shy person with communication difficulties.

Family occasions bring a new level of tension, quite different from other social occasions as they are can be so loaded with hidden issues. "I know the family are judging her" this is touching on your own insecurities around your family. Maybe she picks up on this tension and it affects her confidence.

From the description it also sounds as though teen behaviour is part of it as well - my teen is notoriously bad at that kind of chit-chat and becomes completely monosyllabic in response to that kind of questioning. He's not a rude kid, he just goes blank when faced with small-talk. Maybe you can give her some tips on how to respond in those kind of situations - some stock 'polite' answers to trot out.

I think it's a phase lots of pre/teens go through. It is frustrating but I think the more fuss you make, the more pressure there is.

My dd has AS and she is 14, people are starting to comment on how much smilier and chattier she is getting.

Providing her with some constructive help like DaveBussell's stock answers is a good idea. I wrote some questions down for my dd to ask her grandmother on the phone. Their conversations were painful to listen to

Aw bless, your DD sounds lovely. I actually think distant family are the hardest to communicate with – they’re not total strangers you can just shrug off if it goes wrong, and they’re not close family who know you well and accept you for who you are. If you feel that your family are judging your DD, you can bet that she feels it even more strongly and that’s why she’s clamming up. The more upset you get about it and the more cross you get with her, the more anxious she will feel and the more her communication will vanish.

I agree you should encourage her to communicate. You can prime her before social events –“ I expect your cousins will ask you what you got for Christmas, you can tell them you got this and that. If anyone asks what you did, remember we went here and did this. When we leave, do say thank you to Auntie Flo, and goodbye to whoever is in the room”. (DH and I still do this with DS, who is 15 and has Aspie-type communication problems) Feel free to bribe her, and to praise her (in private) for every teeny little good thing she says – “I liked the way you said hi to Jo and Clare – that was really warm”. But punishing her for not overcoming her communication problems - no way.

And don't let the family judge her, and especially, do not let the fact that they judge her make you get angry with her. Do not allow their negative thoughts to mess with your head! She is already doing her very best to be sociable.

"this is touching on your own insecurities around your family" I bloody love mumsnet. You'd pay a fortune for a counsellor with that level of insight, and you lot get it from one ranty post.

Yes I have massive insecurities around this side of the family, and I think just typing this out has made me realise that I'm more concerned about them judging me than her.

And lljkk I am not some massive extrovert. I was worse if anything as a teen. Particularly with these relatives as it happens, and I was much more introverted than DD at school. I don't want DD to be like me. It's shit being an introvert and having people judge you and dismiss you because you can't make smalltalk.

We have done the stock answers thing when she was younger. I had a baseline list of things she had to say. They were hello, thank you, yes please, no thanks, goodbye. I didn't do it this time because I thought she would be OK, plus now she's nearly a teen, I know if I tried to suggest it she'd huff and puff and tell me to stay out of it.

Thanks for the answers though. I think the solution is that there should be a baseline of politeness, and any more than that is up to her.

And maybe stay away from this side of the family for a while. They're a bunch of horrible racists anyway.

Kleinzeit - crosspost, and thank you. That's exactly the answer I needed. Yes she is lovely. It makes me cross that they don't see it. And I'm cross with myself for letting them get to me. It's not fair on her, and you're right I need to sort out my own issues and not drag her into it.

I'm glad I posted. It's really helped.

I've had a similar Christmas with dd age 7. She doesn't like my uncle because his hair sticks out like a clone and he's 'weird'. My sister sees it as a challenge to get to know her which is painful too. When dd doesn't reply,family will say outloud, oh she never talks to me either. Have tried to mix not making dd anxious with expectations of a level of sociability. It's hard.

dd is very much an introverted teen (and was an introverted child whom I felt I had to protect at times from overbearing relatives). The first thing to do is accept its absolutely fine for them to be an introvert. They dont have to be all chatty and the life of the party. Its fine for them to be who they are.

Its also important to let them know that it is fine to feel that way. A lot of the awkwardness comes from a clash between how they feel and expectations that they have of themselves and others have of them. It takes time but I think just work on getting them being comfy on their own skin.

I'm introverted and I was once told by somebody who clearly knows what she is doing psychology wise when I asked her for advice for a job interview 'remember that Obama is an introvert.' Now I don't know if its really true, but it helped me hugely and it has helped dd too.

However afterwards if it does come across as actually rude rather than shy or awkward I do say to dd 'that came across as rather rude, next time try this...' and its starting to work :) She is starting to answer herself and politely, if rather briefly sometimes. She is still very quiet at gatherings but thats fine, thats who she is.

Some really good advice Kleinzeit, I hadnt thought about priming dd before we enter a social occasion. Might work for me too as my coping mechanism if I can't watch quietly is to ask lots of questions (and I have to gag myself from giving everyone a synopsis on the weather situation )

Hmm so you know she's shy, you know she finds social situations stressful, you seem to be aware that it's worse when there's a lot of events/pressure so your way of handling it was 'distress yourself more or I will punish you for being distressed'?

I think controlling the number and duration of social engagements you expect of her and taking the pressure off would be a good place to start. It sounds as though she was making some really excellent progress, then Christmas hit and she was overwhelmed. How about asking your DD what she thinks will make it easier for her to communicate? At 12 she's old enough to work with you on coping mechanisms and it's something that should help to empower her, maybe even build some confidence. Does she feel able to come to you and tell you that all the visits/visitors are getting too much? It might be worth developing a strategy for that situation in future.

I have one of these! 12 yo ds. He's always been shy and I thought he'd grow out of it, but he's worse now if anything. Either that or it stands out more.

He cannot speak to ANYONE over the age of about 13. He is terrible with all adults, even his own gran who he has seen very regularly since he was born. She once told me she'd never bonded with him and I totally see that.

The wife of one of my husband's friend's (who works with children with special educational needs) said she thought he was on the spectrum!!! I've ignored that…..

I cling on to the fact that I was very much like this when I was young. I clearly remember being in primary school and my teacher saying 'do you not like adults?' because I was so atrocious at speaking to them. I would say I'm still a bit shy and rubbish at small talk, but have always had plenty of friends, in fact, in my late teens and early 20s I had too many and my social life was intense!

Sounds like she is very shy and it is being made worse by you constantly pointing it out to her. I remember feeling similar myself about my DD, who is lovely and very bright and ambitious, but very shy. Once I realised it was the people around her making and labelling her as shy that was the issue, things really changed. I celebrated her for what she was and I began to love her introvert nature. She is the best listener, can read people like a book, is never annoying or in your face but equally is not a pushover and can lead people. She is now in her last year of uni and planning to go into teaching. She is an introvert but much less so, she is quietly very confident and chooses when she wants to be loud and full of conversation and when she needs to just relax and not be centre of attention.

Yes your DD is an introvert and that should be celebrated, but as you rightly say, she still needs to learn basic conversation skills.
Try being much more positive. Casually discussing in the car on the way there 'you could tell Uncle X about that great school trip you went on' or when you hear relatives talking to your DD, if she is struggling prompt her with 'Oh yes you had that wonderful English teacher last term, tell Aunt Y about the lesson where she jumped on the table'.
On the way home if she has been socialable or managed (even with your prompts) praise her gently with a 'Great Aunt Z seemed to love you telling him about school, you are really good at telling that story'
It sounds like at the moment you build it up to such a big thing, she knows you are watching her and feeling ashamed and hence feels even more anxious about it all.
As you say, she is lovely. You should be proud of her and not worry what others think. You should help her learn how to deal with these situations without pressuring her and making her feel even more worried herself.

Just saw Kleinzeit's post and I completely agree with her suggestions.

I could have written your post, my 12.5 year old dd is very similar.

Please, please don't compare her to others, even just on here, or put pressure on her. You'll make things worse for her. People don't choose to be shy. She is who she is.

I really believe that this is one of those situations which will get better in time. In the meantime you can build her self esteem by making sure she knows you love her and are proud of her as she is and (very important) you wouldn't want to change her.

Yes it's not great that she can't say thank you but there are worse things. Those chatty, confident teens from that other family...maybe they are rude/lippy/cheeky on other occasions, you just don't know. Stop wishing she was different.

Who says at 12 she 'should' be able to manage x y or z? Children develop at different rates, this is no different.

I think you're more worried about people judging her or that it reflects badly on you than her. It must be stressful for her. She needs support not criticism.

DD3 is 21 and Dyspraxic. She has always found it hard to talk to people she doesn't know well. She also sometimes finds it hard articulating properly. We have always found she's better when we are not around. She has got better as she has got older and now tries hard talk to everyone. She started uni in September and made an effort straight away to talk to her flatmates and now gets on well with them. However when she was younger we used to gently try and encourage her to answer people but didn't force her as that made her worse. Your DD isn't being rude she probably just can't do it,

DS2 is/was a bit like this. He genuinely didn't understand that ignoring questions or giving monosytllabic grunts appeared rude. I needed to explain to him that people might feel he was deliberately trying to upset them unless he made a social effort. Things which helpled him:

• practising making eye contact while talking (look listener in eyes - look away - look back)
• practising smiling in the mirror (he genuinely thought his grumpy looking sneer looked like a friendly grin until shown evidence)
• role-playing predictable conversations (ordering food/ thank yous etc)
• I taught him to add a 'fluffy sentence' to each answer (i.e. meaningless social noise)

e.g. If Auntie Gladys asks 'So how's school?' Answer 'OK' but add a bit of fluff e.g. I like PE best. or I hate homework though. e.g Neighbour: 'Did you have a nice Christmas?' DS: Yes thanks + We ate a lot of turkey.

DaveBussel is a poster on the thread whenever she provided her ds with polite stock answers

Get your copy of 'DaveBussell's Stock Answers' here - only £999.99!

Davebussell stock answers sounded like a valid google search

Hmm, it is tough, my dd has AS so she needs to learn small talk as she doesn't learn by osmosis like most people.

In a way it's easier for her to accept this (as she's had help all her life) than a teen who has no obvious issues, if that makes sense.