Tell me your teens negative learning attitudes

[Palika]

I have posted before about DS14's bad report and have established with the teachers that he is not stupid (he's got an A in science - the only A; other than that it's Cs, Ds and Es). Instead they say he is 'lazy and silly'.

I am now trying to coach him a bit to get over his negative learning attitudes. We figured out a few like 'not trying because of fear of failure' and DS's big one 'I will lose all my friends if I have good marks'.

But he has many more negative learning attitudes - I just don't really understand them all.

What prevents your teens from using their natural intelligence and achieve their potential?

A sense of pointlessness, or an inability to see the correlation between working hard and achievement (maybe because this has never happened).

Inability to imagine the future, or how current actions impact upon it.

Feelings of helplessness or of being controlled - if I have no control over my environment, and can't see any relationship between my thoughts/feelings and what actually happens to me, then maybe my actions do not and will never impact my environment.

My parents will always be there to sort stuff out for me, I don't need to worry.

Why should I bother putting the effort in, when it doesn't seem to be proportional to the result?

What's the point in trying my best when it will never be as good as what some of my friends are achieving?

What is the point in putting work in for those subjects that aren't leading to a qualification and that I won't be continuing after April anyway?

Ds has finally revealed that the reason he became the class clown in Yr 7 was that he was afraid of being bullied.

Also he was convinced for a long time that he was really dim and there was no point.

The time of day that lessons start - doesn't fit in with his body clock at all

The fact that he wasn't challenged (pushed?) for much of his school life - he just doesn't not grasp the concept of having to work to achieve something - he's "done alright so far" without the effort

Thanks, all, really good points.

Backforgood, your point chimes with me. I find the school system molly-coddling to an almost extreme. Children and parents are virtually left in the dark about how well the children are doing (I always had to make investigations and ask questions that I clearly felt the teachers were uncomfortable with) and then they suddenly they turn on the pressure.

To me it is absolutely no surprise that boys aren't doing so well in this system....it's like saying 'be really motivated to play football but you will never be allowed to compete in a game'. How motivating is that?

My experience is that boys really thrive on some healthy competition and that is exactly what the school system has denied them....until now when the are 15 and get this shock that there are not up to the task.

Anyway, I know it's not only the school's fault. DS has so many bad learning attitudes, I can see him in virtually all of your comments.

He is a mixture of big-headedness 'I am a genius physicist like Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang' and total low-self-esteem 'nobody will like me if I achieve'.

Since the bad report he had 4 tests - one I forced him to revise and the other 3 he revised absolutely nothing. What am I do to?

How can I make it clear to him that from now on every day and every test and every task is counting. That he can't afford to 'drop' French 'becasue he does not need to become an engineer' (because he will need every B that he can get otherwise he can't go to 6th form)

He is so so upset by the prospect to become an electrician or car mechanic and he so so much wants to go to university and become an engineer. Yet, he does not grasp the connection to have to work NOW to achieve his goal THEN.

I am very torn whether to continue helping him (I did this extensively throughout all his school years) or to simply accept who he is. Coaching him is of course rather unpleasant because he frequently gets annoyed and thinks mum 'doesn't understand.'

But without my help I am sure he would be bottom sets pretty much across the curriculum (partly because of low self-esteem, partly because of his extreme 'here and now-attitude', partly becasue of inability to focus, lack of detail consciousness and problems to write fast enough). the great shame in all this is that he is actually intelligent and both math and science teacher said he could be 'easily' an A-student if he stopped being so 'lazy and silly'.

(Just one example: since primary school his math teachers have moaned that DS does not use a ruler, that he does not show his workings and that he does not write his number into the little boxes but scrawls them all over the paper. Can he bothered now to use a ruler? No! Does he show his workings? No. Does he still scrawl his numbers all over the paper? Mostly)

Any advice would be most welcome!

I don't really have any advice other than (as you already know) IMHO he has to take responsibility for his own learning. And self in general.

It sounds like he has not really developed that level of maturity yet. What responsibilities does he have at home/school? Is he in any clubs/groups where he has to work as part of a team - that he will let others down if he doesn't do his best? What does he do on his own? Journeys to/from school/other on public transport/bike rather than being ferried, etc Does he babysit/take responsibility and earn money in other ways?

He is so upset because in your attempt to motivate him, you may have given him a distorted picture of life as an electrician or mechanic. Your DS could earn a very good living if he is good at it, possibly as good or better than he would make as a struggling graduate engineer. And he might enjoy it more. I'm sure at some point you said he likes messing around with large chunks of mechanical stuff? Let him be who he is and use his true talents, rather than trying to be the person you imagine he must be just because he is a member of your family.

It’s late in the day but do get his potential ADHD or dyspraxia formally diagnosed, and if he has them then get proper support for them in school. Your earlier therapies have no doubt made a difference to the most obvious symptoms but – given your description of your DS – it sounds as if they have not removed the more subtle symptoms nor the underlying conditions. If your DS is struggles to do such simple things as use a ruler reliably, then his life in school must be an utter demoralising battle and it's no wonder he is so unmotivated and under-achieving his academic potential. Your therapies have been enough to keep your DS under the school radar, but schools will not notice subtle signs of learning disabilities.

You have gone as far as you can single-handed. Your DS needs to know whether he really has these conditions or not, and if he does have them he needs to learn self-management, and he needs professional and academic support where necessary because he is too old to have you do it all at home for him. Life will be hard for him even as a mechanic or electrician if he has dyspraxia or ADHD and doesn’t have a lot of self-management strategies.

I fart-arsed about at school too. I went to a very average comprehensive where it was not cool to clever and as I desperately wanted to fit in, I played dim. It didnt matter what my father said to me about my future - that was far to far away to worry about and the here-and-now of friendships was much more important.

If he has natural intelligence he will probably wake up mid-twenties (like I did) and realise he wants more from life than what 'playing dim' gets you. We are all different. We all 'do' life differently. Just because he doesnt walk out of school with 3 A levels and a place at Uni does NOT mean his life is over. Yes, I'm sure its frustrating just watching him mess about - but you can't live his life for him. He has to find out himself about low achievement and want to do something about it. You can't do that for him However much you want to.

You could change tack. Lay off the nagging - I don't mean
this unkindly, but whether or not you're nagging it sounds like you're very involved with his school work (understandably) and he will consider your concerns to be nagging (or lack of faith in him) BUT continue to be supportive of him generally: praise him/thank him for all the tiny things you notice eg being polite or thoughtful/tidy whatever Compliment him on his general appearance, be openly glad for him when he's enjoying himself/having a good social life/pleased with his new trainers etc.

Drop everything to listen to him at the times he wants to be communicative.

If he's sure that you are on his side as he goes through life and that you trust and have confidence in him he'll be more likely to make good choices - including working hard and having a sensible attitude to his education.

It's possible that he feels you only/mostly value academic success at the moment and switches off when you try to help him. (then again he might just be lazy and/or lacking in self-discipline and you might have to accept this flaw in him)

If he's not working hard as a means to exercise his need to feel he's making his own choices, stepping back from your involvement in his studying will mean that he has no incentive to rebel in this way IYSWIM.

I really sympathise with you - I've been through this with my bright DD recently. I used to think I'd never attempt to haul a child through their exams, letting them fail if need be, learning a valuable lesson about life in the process and giving them the message that education is only one of the important things in life (am thinking of other moral values here and arrogant children who feel that because they've studied hard and done well they're better than others and/or entitled to a cushy life) but when it came to it, especially in the expensive times we're in, I couldn't bring myself to step back until a few months before her (Scottish equivalent of Y12 exams) by which time I was nearly round the bend and had to let go a bit for my sake (and for the good of the rest of the household).

You can lead a horse to water...... And you can actually put your DC off wanting to study by going about it too much.

It's very difficult to know what to do for the best in these situations - good luck .

Mrs Bright and Chocoluva,
thanks for your advice. You are right - letting go is the way to go. It's just so dam hard...it's the living through it day by day seeing him messing about and ruining his future that drives me to tears (just found a letter from school in DS bathroom with the slip to sign for his French revision guide - deadline already gone, grrrhhh!)

BigTilly
Ds gets up with his own alarm clock, makes his own breakfast and lunch and walks 1 mile to the bus stop (yes, very rural here). He does not go to any clubs, but has good enough friends and is not very confident socially. He had a very short job with a neighbour who is some sort of crazy inventor. The man quickly got fed up with DS but I think that is at least half of his own fault - he really is rather crazy.
At home DS must tidy his room every day, bring in firewood, clear away the dinner stuff at week ends and help working on our land at the weekend. All this work is the result of very hard battles, endless lists, and lots of discipline and reward systems. He is very imature but recently has become somewhat more reasonable.

Kleinzeit
thanks for your advice. I agree that DS still has the ADHD as a tendency in his character but would doubt that he qualifies for a statement as he has not real symptoms. I have asked many teachers over the years whether they see in DS dyspraxia or adhd and the answer was always no. Immature, yes, special needs, no.

I find it confusing that you say he would get support at school if he had a statement for adhd. Can you please explain. I have known a number of adhd children with statements and they had absolutely no support at school. Maybe some extra time at tests but no form of therapy or anything that would actually help. Other than that they were simply drugged as you can imagine. So, I cannot see why and how a statement would help. (extra time in tests is no issue for DS as he always hands in his tests well ahead of time as he cannot be bothered to check them through properly)
I would be very interested in your answer - this is not just 'yes - but'.

just switching on the watch this thread

Watching this thread as the mum of a teen who is under performing.

Seems to be excellent advice already given. I have nothing to add but wanted you to know OP that I am in the same boat.

My 13 year old is the same, he does study but seems to struggle with this need to be popular,he does ask constant questions but mostly asks what job don't need maths.

Hopefully your DS will work harder when his exams are getting close.

I really sympathise with your frustration though - I tried everything - threats, bribery, talking about DD's goals (which she wouldn't achieve if she didn't work harder), how the studying is only for a few months compared with the rest of her life, advised her to do short bursts, offered help, asked questions, said encouraging things, reminded her how well she did in primary school, told her about young people I knew who weren't as bright as her but had done well through hard work; it was a horrendous year.

I don't think any of it made any difference. One day after I'd told her she should be studying, she retorted that she was about to start but now that I'd told her to she "didn't feel like it". Another poster said she felt, like you and me, that she'd feel guilty if her DC didn't do well and she hadn't tried everything she could think of to help him, but she didn't think anything she did had any effect anyway.

PART of my DD's problem was that she gave up if she couldn't do something straight away or get a good result quickly; a contrast from her days at primary school where she could do most things well instantly. No resilience. I wonder if your DS is like that?

She did quite well in the end and got a place on the very competitive course she wanted to do so there's hope for your DS. Try not to let this take over your life or you'll drive yourself crazy. Que sera sera etc

Palika, at least he still has some time to mature a bit and see that it's up to him to knuckle down.

DD puts a lot of pressure on herself - she feels like she has failed if she doesn't get the best possible grades, but is also very resentful of having to put the time into studying. She gets very stressed and anxious which is also difficult to deal with as I just want her to be happy and do OK

Just made a few investigations - there is actually a college not too far from here where you need only 5 Cs to study for A-level. This was suggested in the previous thread I posted already but did not register with me properly (was too angry and upset I guess)

In DSs school he would need 4 Bs to go to sixth form and that is pretty much out of reach for him at the moment. But 5 Cs he'll get quite easily.

So, this is actually VERY good news as he can almost definitely stay in school until A-level and will have many more options that way. I am relieved.

Does anybody know if there is a comprehensive way to find out about all the ways to go to school and get qualifications? It seems like every college has it's own rules.

Don't give up on him getting four Bs yet though- he might still knuckle down or just do better than predicted.

(I despair at the complicated education system we have and schools' reluctance to let pupils try A levels. DD was advised to drop one of her subjects after doing badly in her prelim. Fortunately, she decided to give it a go and got an A )

Also Palika, in the event of your DS getting eg, 2 A levels he could still do an HNC or HND and access a university course that way.

I wasn’t really thinking about a statement. Statements are for the highest needs and most of the kids who get some help at school for different kinds of special needs don’t have statements. For example your DS might need more specific help from the school with organisational skills. If they know he is trying but really can’t do it, as opposed to simply not bothering, he might get more appropriate help. A diagnostic assessment would be a way to scope what problems your DS still has.

There’s a difference between a diagnosis and a statement. A statement is a legal requirement for an education authority to provide support to meet educational needs. It’s unlikely that a child would need or get a statement just to get more time in tests. A statement is usually for major help like a place in a special school, or one-to-one help from a teaching assistant, or adaptations in the classroom, adapted learning strategies and behaviour management strategies. A statement is not usually about providing therapy either (which would tend to be seen as a medical rather than educational need) though there are some grey areas such as speech and language therapy which might be written in to a statement.

If you haven’t already tried it, maybe a discussion with his form tutor / head of year and the school SENCO in which you raise the possibility of ADHD or dyspraxia and describe what you’ve needed to do for him at home in the past?

But there may be less need to worry about all this, if college looks like a good option anyway

Chocoluvva
how can I find out about all this info about the possibility of getting only 2 a-levels etc? Just googled HNC and HND and they are described as short university courses and not school courses.

Also, found out that I was misinformed by our school - we checked the prospectus last night - DS does not need 4 Bs - there is a number of A-levels that he can study with having Cs in GCSEs.

I was told by the head of house that he had to leave school if he did not have 4 Bs. I am fuming - I gave my poor Ds such hell about those Bs and now they do not seem necessary.

I am relieved, too, of course - but I see a big fat complaint about this teacher coming on .

Please someone point me to a comprehensive explanation fo the British school system.

Kleinzeit
thanks for the info - as you can read in my latest post this may have been all a storm in a teacup because I was given the wrong info by the head of house.

I am hugely relieved but still fuming for all the agony that this has caused us. I have apologised to DS with tears but he took it graciously. It's any way not my fault - it's his bloody teacher (who looks like an alcoholic

Talking about getting extra help - I told DS tutor everything about DS past when he started school here a year ago. The tutor responded by saying that he does not want to know about it . I then wrote a very long email explaining that if he did not want to know about it - how would he be able to gauge that DS needs extra help.

He then put DS on a program for assertive mentoring for which I am hugely grateful. I had no idea that what was missing was some form of diagnoses.

I always wanted to protect DS from the potential harm such a diagnoses could do to his self-esteem. I am working in a medical profession myself and have to diagnose people - I am very wary about this danger, particularly with diagnoses that have anything to do with the mind. The harm they can do can sometimes outweigh the positive effects.

So, just for info's sake - how do you get formally diagnosed? (I am despairing - I seem to know nothing - thanks goodness for mumsnet)

Yes, I can see it’s not an easy decision. It’s not clear whether a diagnosis at this stage would bring much more help from the school in addition to what he’s already getting from the mentoring. But then again, for example if your DS physically struggles to write fast enough then one adaptation might be to allow him to use a laptop for schoolwork and in exams, my DS has been offered this. Or a scribe, even. If you did want to go down that route the first step would be ask your GP to refer your son for assessment (I am not sure who would do it, e.g. it could be an occupational therapist, could be a developmental paediatritian, this is another thing that varies from place it place!) But it might be better just to bear in mind yourself that there might still be a mix of “can’t” as well as “wont” in your DS’s behaviour.

'will lose all my friends if I do well'.

wow, they are worthwhile, aren't they? Teach not to be a sheep and not to associate with stupid wasters.

A statement might or might not help IM(limited experience)E. An ed psyche would be able to refer your DS to the appropriate specialist.

Re HNC/HNDs: FE colleges offer these. In the case of subjects such as engineering for example, universities will often accept a relevant HND instead of the minimum A level grades for entry into their first or sometimes second year.

(My DS was diagnosed as being on the ASD as a result of referral from an ed psyche. He is supposed to get 'support' from each subject teacher (not that he wants it) with ensuring he has the relevant texts etc and knows what homework he has but this doesn't happen. I don't think his subject teachers have seen the document advising this support and his HOY told me that it's difficult for teachers to do this!!!! Also, my DS doesn't regard himself as having special needs. That's just one story though.....)

Try not to let your DS see that you're angry with his school btw - he needs to have confidence in his teachers and not have any reason/excuse to think his chances of doing well are affected by anything outwith his control.