Relationship with DD16 down the toilet

[gleekster]

Hi, have NC for this as DD has a habit of snooping.

I really need some advice about how to go forward with relationship with DD. It has deteriorated since she turned 13 and started being, well, hateful towards me. I am a single parent but she sees her dad loads and he and I have an amicable co parenting relationship.

I have talked with friends and although their teen DDs are moody and rude sometimes, they don't seem to be experiencing the level of hostility and verbal abuse that I do. DD is rude and obnoxious to me literally every minute of the day. She criticises everything about me. Every time I say anything I am just waiting for her to come in with the nasty comments. She is like it with DS 13 as well but not as bad as with me.

She is difficult with her father, but he doesn't get the personal nasty comments about appearance, behaviour, the way he speaks, blah blah blah.

My stance so far has been to cut her off financially ( she refuses to work despite there being plentiful part time jobs around where we live) until she improves her behaviour, and to deprive her of things like lifts. She gets around this by getting money off her Dad, and from her grandmother, who is NC with me, whole other story although it is relevant as she definitely poisons DD against me every chance she gets (she is a narc).

A friend I went out with last night, who has known DD since birth, says I am waaaay to soft with her, that instead of ignoring her behaviour, and laughing it off like I normally do, I should confront her far more forcefully and say something like " You are so fucking rude it is unacceptable. If you carry on being this nasty you will have to go and live somewhere else as I will not tolerate it any longer."

What do other mumsnetters think? I do find it incredibly stressful living with her as you would imagine, my self esteem is knocked on a daily basis by her nasty comments, some of which of course, hit their mark.

When I read posts on here about mums who are distraught that their DDs are leaving home and going off to uni I am almost jealous. I just think my feeling will be elation and relief that the abuse will stop.

Does anyone have any ideas how to stop my relationship with her sliding down the toilet? I try to arrange nice things for us to do together, like to go Christmas shopping so I can but her clothes and stuff, but she clearly doesn't want to go with me and would much rather I just gave her the cash and pissed off. I don't expect some Disney kind of relationship, but is it too much to think we could spend a morning shopping together, going for a coffee, having a nice chat?

I should probably add that she is quite hostile generally and only has one friend. She has always been like this. Nobody is good enough for her to bother with.

Thanks for reading this far!!

What do her teachers say about her?

Having only one friend is a little bit unusual IMO. Do you think she might have a communication disorder or Asperger's? I'm sorry if that's completely off the mark.

I think most teenagers are pretty insensitive though - so try not to take this personally. I'm one of the mums you mentioned who's not looking forward to my DD leaving home, but she makes comments like 'Are you going to the shopping centre wearing THAT?' etc Apparently the rewiring of the teenage brain predisposes them to being less sensitive, empathic, socially aware etc for a few years!

Just another thought - do you often ask her if she'd like to go shopping with you etc? Perhaps she feels you're 'nagging' or something. If you leave things for a bit and let her see you have your own enjoyable activities she might begin to see you in a fresh light.

You have my sympathy - it must be especially difficult when you don't have another adult to dilute her effect on you and have a moan or laugh with.

Thanks chocca. She just started sixth form. Whilst at senor school she was always noted as being very quiet and not contributing enough in lessons. She is quite academic, doing science a levels and wants to work in medical research but she has always struggled with friendships. She is very judgemental about others so it would be very difficult to measure up to her standards as a friend. I do remember one previous friend referring to her non stop moaning and asking me "How do you stand it?"

I am also worried about the impact on my DS as he takes quite a lot of stick. For example, it's his birthday next week and he is getting a bike. He won't be riding around main roads or anything, mostly at the big parks, and mostly with his dad, but she made a really nasty comment about "hoping he falls off" which is the sort of thing she comes out with regularly. She really does act like she hates us, especially me.

Maybe she will grow out of it but I feel I shouldn't have to live with someone who is that hateful to me 24/7. She did have some counselling a year ago but she said it was "rubbish" and that the counsellor sided with me on everything, although she didn't and actually gave me some good feedback on how to listen better etc.

I don't think she has aspergers but because of the situation with my mothers NPD I do often worry that she has that. It would fit because of other issues, like her total lack of empathy, but then I don't know if it is just normal teen stuff and I am jumping to conclusions. For example, one of her old friends grandmother died recently. Now Ok she isn't that pally with this girl any more and she only met the grandmother a few times, but when I told her her reaction was "Why would I care about that? It's nothing to do with me." I expected her to say, "Oh, poor oldfriendsname. " Am I just expecting too much?

She just seems soooo unhappy and is taking it out on me. I don't ask her shopping etc often, this is just to buy her Christmas presents....... You would think she would bite my hand off but I know she would rather I just hand over the cash.

Should I do that? I don't want to feel like I am just giving up on us and our relationship.

No advice OP, but lots of sympathy. DD2 is 16 and has become pretty hostile and uncommunicative. So I 'm not quite in the same boat but I do feel for you. I'm really hoping she will grow out of it but it's very wearing to feel resented almost all the time

You poor thing. There is nothing worse than having an enemy in the house.

I wonder what'll happen when she's 18? Do you think she'll apply to universities away from home? Do you think she'll come home regularly? My brother was a lot of trouble and he was the last to leave home - it was a weird situation as if I hated being there as much as he did, I would've gone long ago! Do you think your daughter will have the confidence to move away? Can you picture her in halls of residence?

I don't know what to say, really, I'm sorry. My instinct would be to look for a boarding sixth form but I'm sure I'll get flamed for that. I think sometimes being away from home can make them realise it's not so bad at home.

I think I'd try to make sure I had my own friends around as much as I could. Is she even a little better in front of them? If she is, that's a sign she knows what she's doing.

Have you ever taken her to the doctor? Would she even go?

Thanks everyone.

I think I will speak to her dad about maybe her moving in with him for a bit. She is clearly so unhappy here and she is making us unhappy too ( me and DS) it will mean she is closer to college but further away from her friend so she may have mixed feelings but I don't see how we can go on.

Last time I suggested this to XH he was very reluctant to have her but I am at the end of my tether really.

I could have written your post about DD15. She is rude to us all the time. Grunts in reply if you speak to her and woe betide anyone who looks at her! She also makes DD12's life a misery.She's permanently angry and so difficult. It's so depressing. I was in tears last night - I honestly don't know if I can cope with another three years of this. Every day is so hard. So you're not alone.

Let us know how you get on with her dad. I don't have any answers for you, other than just to take care of yourself and know that you're not the only one in this crap situation.xx

OP, I would say that that level of non-empathy is not normal for a teen (what you say about the friend's grandmother for instance).

It could mean genuine inability to feel empathy= some kind of SN.

Or it could hide an abyss of unhappiness. Not that I can pretend to know where that unhappiness is coming from: could be anything from MH issues to something that has happened to her that she can't get over. I have come across similar reactions from girls who have been raped or abused in some way, but I'm sure that's just one of many, many possibilities.

Whatever it is it doesn't seem to be just about your relationship; there does appear to be some deep seated problem that poisons her ability to handle relationships in general.

Have you asked her why she is so hateful? If it isn't possible because she screams/shouts, try writing to her?

If she doesn't realsie how mean she is, maybe film or voice record her behaviour?

what's wrong with the line "Speak to me like that again and you can pack your bag and find somewhere else to live"

I think a certain amount of selfishness is part of being a teenager, but this level of abuse is not fair on you or DS. You need to talk to XH and put a plan together that shares the load.

Or how about a family conference to thrash out why she is speaking like that and where she should live?

Thanks again for all the advice and support. I think she probably does have a personality disorder like her grandmother and unfortunately they are not curable.

I think I will go down the family conference/speak to me like that again and you are out line. And yes, her dad should be far more involved emotionally than he is. He is far too indulgent but that's not hard is it when you only spend a few hours a week with someone and are not dealing with the day to day fallout?

I think it is extremely unlikely she has been abused or raped but obviously not impossible. I honestly think that she will never be happy, but I have to see if we can get through the next year or so before she goes to uni or if she will have to move out earlier than expected. I have to be far tougher on her than I have been to date. I know I have let her get away with far too much and that I have been part of the problem.

That sounds like a good plan.

When things have been rocky with my DD I have let most things go but have had zero tolerance for two things. She has to speak reasonably nicely to everyone in the house and has to do her school work.

By goodness she has tried my patience. Stroppy is only the start of it, and we haven't had the added stress of a personality disorder to cope with. I do hope things work out for you, DD and DS.

Well I spoke with her last night and she said she doesn't want to move in with her Dad as she doesn't like the area and she doesn't like his partner. She made it very clear she hates me and that if/when she leaves she will never speak to me again

I don't really know how to react to this. I am torn between saying, "Why don't you just fuck off now if you feel that strongly about me." and trying to salvage what I can from our relationship. I have suggested we try to get on better and ways we can do that, but at what point do you throw in the towel and say OK, I have lost a daughter/son because the alternative is tolerating hostility/abuse/simmering hatred ?

Oh dear I feel for you. It is so hard to live with someone who behaves in this way. You really have to try not to take it personally , she doesn't really hate you. And I don't think she can realise how awful it is for you to be on the receiving end of this behaviour ( lack of empathy as said already ) .

My DS15 was absolutely horrible to me last week, and when I relayed the conversation we 'd had word for word back to him the next day ( because I was still upset ) he did say ' I didn't mean to be so spiteful '.

No advice , sorry, just know you are not alone! What I have learnt is that it doesn't matter how upset you get, they just don't get it and will not adjust their behaviour. My son will look at me and say 'it's not a crying matter ' or ' why are you upset' - as if it has nothing to do with him. When it has everything to do with him.

Like blackblazer the next few years are filling me with dread.

It must be so incredibly hard for you and life must be so stressful. FWIW though she says those things to you, she isn't actually leaving, is she? If I hated someone that much and was offered an alternative route out, I'd jump at it. She isn't.

You will probably find that after a while of no-contact when she's at university, she will start to come back. Don't get roped into giving a lot of financial support if she is so incredibly rude, though. There are systems in place at universities for students who have cut themselves off from their parents.

Can personality disorders be inherited? I have to say I don't know too much about them. It's must be so distressing thinking that's what she has.

Last few days she has stayed with her NPD grandmother. Needless to say this has not helped matters.

I spoke with her again yesterday and she says she is going to consider her options but I have stuck to my guns and said she has to be polite and kind if she wants to live here. I don't have millions of house rules. Just that she isn't nasty. It seems to be too much to ask of her though.
I have suggested counselling but she refuses point blank as there is "nothing wrong with her, it's all me." As she is over 16 I don't think I can insist on counselling or even get her to see the doctor.

I think I have to just wait for her to make a decision about what she wants to do and where she wants to go from here, but I cannot carry on living with someone who is just habitually abusive and who openly hates me.

I hope she spends Christmas with her father then, gleekster, and you and your son get a break from her.

It sounds as though she likes to be in control in the house. How is she with people her own age?

She likes to be in control full stop, yes. She only has one friend. She criticises most people, nobody meets her "standards".

I just have to hope that she gets over herself at some point!! Thanks for all the support MNetters.

Just so sad reading this, horrible situation for all of you as I suspect your dd probably isn't happy underneath either

The only suggestion I have is that you get counselling. You say you learned a lot from your daughters counsellor. It will help you let go when the time comes. Give you strength and support. Though OP I think you are amazing to have managed to keep her so far. Amazing.