Why does DD get teachers behaving like this?

[WideScreenViper]

I don't get it and want to finish it.

My DD has always been a confident chatterbox, its always been brought up at parents nights but in a benign way, I always got the impression she was one of many. She is not Mumsnet-Bright but keeps up academically, hands in work on time, gets good reports for effort etc. I never got the impression she was annoying or disruptive to the class. Since starting Secondary, however, she seems to be getting labelled that way. She says in nearly all teachers are using technique of joking at her and trying to incite the class to laugh along if she has to be picked up on something, also only having words with her even if she is one of many or has not been doing anything at all. She says it is only or mostly her, not other kids they use this with.

I haven't taken much notice so far, thinking it all due to the differences of Secondary teaching and her indulging in some self centred griping. I asked her who doesn't get this kind of attention and she said the boring kids. I suggested she model them for a couple of weeks to see if it makes a difference, but she was unwilling. So, I think it is likely it is her behaviour, but what exactly is it and what should she do?

Also, what if it is not bad behaviour on her part( or not any more than any other occasionally chattery girl in class), but something else causing her to be picked on and scapegoated? It has gone on too long, a couple of years now.

I don't know and wonder if anyone has experience to offer or advice in this situation as my daughter is getting very down about it. Its not just one teacher and some have downright shouted and thrown things at her. The worst one is in her worst subject and she feels she cannot ask the teacher for help when she is stuck.

I think the issue from your first post was that you implied that all your DD's teachers were somehow inadequate. I know you say her feelings are hurt but you also say she refuses to adapt her behaviour.

I would suggest you ask for your DD to go on lesson report, nearly all schools have a system of this sort, and also make an appointment for you, your DD and her Head of Year to go through it at the end of the first week.

As a teacher a constantly chatty pupil is very disruptive, most pupils when asked to be quiet will apologise and stop talking but in every class there will be one of two who will either deny it is them or carry on talking. They might be able to keep up with the lesson but they will also be preventing other pupils who can't manage so easily from doing so.

As your daughter gets further up the school she will probably find this moves to a much more serious problem. However if she can chat through a lesson and still achieves well maybe she is in too easy a set and has not been moved up because of her behaviour?

do you tell yourstudents and their parents that ilove or just make snap judgements (like you did with me?) that are hard to change?

I tried to change and knuckle down (probably in year 9 OP when SATs and impending GCSE decisions started to kick in but I found itwas very hard to shake the initial judgements that had already been made.

I really enjoyed school overall and because of that in the earlier years of making friends, the novelty of changing classrooms and having more than 1 teacher to get to know - you (or your dd or myself - I don't deny I must have been an irritation) don't realise quite how your concious or unconcious behaviour might be shaping teacher opinion or holding you back.

I think the best thing is probably to do what I suggested: arrange a meeting with the HoY or the teacher she respects most, yourself and your dd, go in with a totally open mind, explain in non-committal language that your dd seems to have a problem in class and ask her for helpful suggestions.

It may be that the HoY or the teacher has spotted a problem that you are unaware of that is affecting your dd's confidence.

It may also be that the HoY can take active measures to make sure your dd does not end up in the trouble-maker box but that individual teachers are encouraged to make a fresh start. (it would, of course, have to involve your dd's cooperation)

But seriously, it is not a case of teacher sarcasm for posters to point out that a teenager who speaks so disrespectfully of others (as you quoted your dd doing, re her boring classmates) cannot hope to earn respect for herself.

I do appreciate that it will be difficult to get this across to her- teenagers being what they are- but if it doesn't get across now she could be in for some painful experiences.

Would role play help do you think? Or just long conversations where you listen and gently ask "how do you think that affected others in the class?", "do you think there is a way you could have played that differently?".

But at the end of the day, if you do make constructive suggestions (as your posts show that you have already done) and she refuses to take them because she looks down on the "boring" classmates, then it's going to be difficult to help her. And it won't be your fault.

I am not a school teacher btw. I am just the mother of teenagers.

basically, I think it may well be a case of what NotYoMomma said

NotYoMomma Wed 30-Oct-13 09:28:49

"you (or your dd or myself - I don't deny I must have been an irritation) don't realise quite how your concious or unconcious behaviour might be shaping teacher opinion or holding you back."

It is not that unusual. But as adults we often see clearer and can help our dc by pointing these things out, by modelling respectful behaviour ourselves and by always pulling them up when they speak disrespectfully of others.

I have a very bright dd myself, and one who might have some reason to feel disgruntled and unfairly treated by life since her medical problems have meant she has never been able to have the opportunities or outward success other bright children have. She has spent a lot of her life watching people who may well be less talented getting the rewards that she could have had if things had been different. So I do know how much work you have to put in as a parent to counteract teenage attitude. But I think it's essential to give her the coping tools: growing up with a bitter and supercilious manner just isn't going to help her in life. It would be understandable but not productive.

Having been a bright child who struggled with how to relate to others myself I often wish my mother had been more on the ball with these things: I had to learn so much for myself- painfully- that I could have had help with.

My son was like a bit this: on the surface all brash confidence, and underneath insecure, bored, then disruptive and eventually disengaged.

'Respect' was a big theme for him, too. He said, frequently, "If teachers are alright with me, I'm alright with them". He couldn't get his head round the fact that a basic level of respect was expected from him - and rightly so - even towards teachers whom he deemed 'unfair' or 'nasty'. By year 9, I could clearly predict which teachers he was going to have problems with (and vice versa)... Passionate committed teachers tended to like him, because he'd give them as much passion and commitment as they gave him. But equally, he'd be sarcastic with sarcastic teachers, bored with boring ones, and rude to any who were rude to him.

At first I backed up school, and if my DS was in trouble at school, he was also in trouble at home. But there were some awful incidents when my son was badly hurt/bullied, and school let him down terribly, and I felt I needed to support and 'champion' him. Through years 7 and 8, I often felt like a mediator, trying to get different 'sides' to understand each other.

As a parent, I was slow catching on to the fact that schools are primarily interested in the collective well-being of groups. If your child is disruptive or otherwise interfering with 'group' well-being and learning, then s/he will be in trouble.

I stopped getting so involved around year 9. I told my son I could see he was behaving badly, and that since he knew the rules by then, I didn't feel I could 'fight his battles' if he wasn't going to abide by them. I told him that, although I agreed some rules and some teachers were 'unfair', that was life. If he wanted an easy time at school, he knew what to do. If he wanted to rebel, he would have to take the consequences. I did still get involved, but only as a last resort, not a first.

With hindsight, I think I would have given my son different messages and strategies. He did have a hard time at school, but rather than trying to mediate and 'fix' things, if I had my time again I think I would be more pragmatic, and tell him "Yes, school is hard work for lots of kids. Your challenge is to find a way of getting along and learning as much as possible. Now, how can I help you do that?"

And funnily enough, my son knew he was being a pain. Just last week - more than three years after leaving school - he said to his little bro "God, I was such a dick at school!"

Wide, I bet your DD knows she's being a pain, too. But she doesn't know how not to be, and she wants you on her side when she gets into trouble.

Probably the best things you can do for her at this stage are:

• Acknowledge school is tough for her
• Help her think about what she's doing in class that's annoying people and/getting her into trouble - and make a sort of 'checklist' of her behaviour and warning signs.
• Help her work out some strategies for changing what she's doing, eg "When I notice myself wanting to chat, I'm going to hold my breath for a count of ten and re-read the question"...
• Help her work out some 'treats', 'rewards' and 'outlets' for herself, for when she's controlled herself and/or successfully avoided trouble! Eg: I didn't talk to my friend in class today so I'll phone her now!

Good luck!

I am actually feeling quite emotional about your taking the time with your considered responses. You are right flow4 it is very difficult to talk to her about, she wants me to defend her but feels if her behaviour is brought up for discussion everyone will pile in and have a go ( dad, big brother, school, even grandparents). Thank you for your very helpful post.

I am taking her for a special shopping trip at the weekend and will try to suggest some techniques v gently away from everyone.

NotYoMomma she would v much identify with you. She is trying to achieve better and is working hard but is getting upset that this attitude still persists. She does need to reflect on her behaviour and I do not think her teachers are all inadequate. Just that this jokey, make her the focus of class humour, is, to her mind, undeserved and unwanted. Yes she is robust enough to take it a bit but it is getting too much. I take the point that if she won't listen to help then she is a big girl and will have to take the consequences.

cory I really feel for you and your daughter. I hope she can see now life fucks us up in various ways at various times and noone has a perfect life. It's difficult to get an adult perspective when they are not adults and all the emotions are so intense. I, too, am trying to give my DD help that I didn't get myself, and obviously not coming across at all clearly in the process!

There is a parents night coming up where I will broach this as much as DD will allow , and see the school separately if need be. It doesn't help that I cannot think of a single teenage role model who is of the quiet, respectful, "boring" but long term successful type.

Thank you all for your suggestions.

The shopping trip chat sounds good, but rather than you suggesting some techniques, how about asking her some key questions, like "What do you think annoys your teachers?" and "Can you think how you could act differently?" That way, you'll get a better idea of how self-aware she is; and if she can come up with her own techniques, she's more likely to use them I think. :)

As it is several teachers and not just one I'd tent to think it's something about your dd's behaviour.

It is very easy for children to feel picked on when they actually aren't.

I had a 17 year old report me for 'picking on' her. We were doing some project work drawing posters and someone asked if they could put music on. I said yes as long as they used headphones.

The girl I supposedly picked on didn't have any headphones and I wouldn't let her play the music on her phone through the speaker.

Of course this was reported to the head of department as me letting everyone else play music but not her.

I don't believe she was being malicious, she did genuinely think I was picking on her.

"It doesn't help that I cannot think of a single teenage role model who is of the quiet, respectful, "boring" but long term successful type."

I was thinking about this one and wondering if something could be done along those lines. I'd agree that the role models in fiction and on the telly are not mostly going to be very helpful: they are usually rebellious slightly full-of-themselves types who get forgiven because they are just so cool. But might it be possible to find something closer to home?

Is there any career or other area where your dd might really want to shine? Any thing she might like to study or any kind of work she might like to do? Any chance of getting in with some older people who are into the same things that she is and have got where they have through perseverance and resilience?

The one thing that has helped my dd is that she is really keen on acting and dreams of stage school. I have found there is so much positive and really inspiring stuff out there: older teens she meets in theatre programmes who are so obviously committed and professional in their attitude, lots of online material about how not to behave and about the attitude you can't afford if auditioning, great advice on how to deal with failure etc, all from the kind of person she would really like to be. It's the best antidote to the X-factor attitude I could ever have imagined.

Just a thought.

NotYo, I apologise if I came across as rude but your typo's almost typified the response of pupils who hear but don't apply what you are saying. As well as being a teacher I am a mother of 3DC one of whom had a hearing problem when she was young that meant low level whispering/chatting made it impossible for her to distinguish the teacher's comments. She really suffered because of this low level disruption. I don't just blame the pupils, the teacher who told me, as we sat in A&E waiting for five stitches to her head, that she should have been aware a boy was kicking off at the back was also responsible, for not cracking down on this disruption before he threw the chair.

Because of this I am adamant about pupil behaviour and because I apply the rules to everyone it does not seem to be a problem at the school I teach at. However I have also seen many pupils believe they are being unfairly picked on when they are 'chatty'. Where I work we invite parents who feel their child is being victimised to spend a day observing lessons, it is often eyeopening.

I would admit that I have after telling a pupil a few times to be quiet been guilty of saying "Oh X has something important to say, can you tell the whole class please?" But I feel that is reasonable to a teenager who refuses to allow others to concentrate.It might seem like sarcasm but it is more about pointing out their response to a clear instruction.

Like the majority of teachers I love my job and enjoy the company of teens who I find interesting and entertaining. However part of my job is to teach them about their responsibility to their peers and how they must respect them, These chatty children don't always realise how indulging their own impulses is incredibly disrespectful to their peers.

It is all about growing up and I cannot believe there is a parent on here with the perfect teenager. But the most important thing is to establish a dialogue with the school and to show your DD that you are taking her concerns seriously but also listening to the school's response.

I think there is a big difference between primary and secondary in the amount of chat tolerated in class. I have to say it has made a massive difference to my dd who struggles with concentration & written work, she is finding things so much easier in a quiet environment.

Perhaps worth pointing out to your dd that the 'boring' children may find it harder than her to get their class work done?