DP's terrible relationship with DS (and vice versa)

[Gingerbreadbaker]

I am at the end of my tether. Everything my DS does seems to irritate his father, and vice versa if I am to be even handed. The fact is though that DS is 11 and DP considerably older and should be more in control of his feelings. DP's behaviour verges on bullying, but when I pick him up on this his says he know, but he can't help himself and that some nights everything DS does irritates him. Their relationship was always close when DS was young, and DP spends lots of time with his DC, often harmoniously. The problem seems to be that DS is not particularly academic (though well above average) and doesn't appear to care much about improving. I feel it is a self protection strategy, and that often his annoying behaviour is down to the fact he's a not very mature 11 year old. DP's own father left the family when he was a toddler, and he was brought up by a very hardworking and successful single mother and was a rather compliant and hardworking little boy. I don't want to slag him off as he's a lovely man in so so many ways, but it's dragging us all down, and I need help and suggestions.

"The fact is though that DS is 11 and DP considerably older and should be more in control of his feelings"

That's the crux of the matter really. Your man is old enough to know better, he is after all an adult. No 11 year old is emotionally mature and nowhere near being so. Do you feel his behaviour towards DS on further reflection is actually bullying, how does all this conflict start?. What are they arguing about?. Is it the same issues each time e.g homework, chores etc. This could also be a power and control issue as well.

What do you do when this conflict starts?.

On further reflection as well is he really as lovely as you state he is?. How does he handle arguments with you or deal with problems?. Is he dismissive?.

Does your DP really think he has a problem because he seems still adept to blame DS for what are really DPs own behaviours. Your man is solely responsible for his behaviours and actions, he has a choice and he is choosing to act as he does.

Is DP your son's stepfather?. Are there other children as well, I only ask as you mention DP spending lots of time with his DC.

I hate to be brutal and I am usually opposed to anyone on MN suggesting anything drastic as we cannot know so much with just a few lines of text however I think you have to make a choice here, between your DP and your son. As you say DP is an adult and your son still a child.

You say DP's behaviour verges on bullying, and he is almost certainly being emotionally abused by your DP's behaviour, and I'm sorry to say you are failing to protect your son while ever you are living in this relationship. I have 30 years experience as a social worker (now retired) and children are taken into care when they are being bullied and emotionally abused.

The most important thing though is that this situation is only going to get worse as your son grows into his teens and he is going to be adversely affected throughout his life unless you take steps to protect him. Discussing it with your DP or "pulling him up on it" isn't going to work and although he is being honest and saying he knows this but "some nights everything he does irritates him" is most definitely emotional abuse.

I have first hand knowledge of step parenting, both from my son being step parented by my DP and being step mother to his DD. This was all long ago and they are grown up with their own families now. SO I do have some sympathy for your DP because I never "took to" my SD and yes she irritated the hell out of me sometimes but I never ever let this show. I used to tell my DP and this usually ended in a row and then I would confide in a friend and that allowed me to let off steam. It wasn't anything she did particularly, I just didn't like her very much, though things are ok now she's an adult.

My DP started to live with us when my son was 2 and so they had a good relationship but interestingly when DS was about 11 or 12, I noticed that DP was "picking on him" for nothing, and then I would jump to his defence and then DP and me would have a row. I could see my DS was suffering and he once said to me "don't always take my part when X has a go at me as it makes things worse" - I was mortified to see my lovely son becoming more and more withdrawn. SO I left my DP and went to stay with a relative, and DP was absolutely devastated and had no idea how much I was being affected by his relationship with DS. He promised to change and said he had no idea why he had got into this way, as he had loved him when he was little. I still stayed away and we went back for weekends, so that I could see if and how things had changed. Well that was a wake up call, as things did change for the better from then on..........I'm not going to say everything was perfect because of course it wasn't but it was ok and my DP and son now have a really good r/ship.

I think we have to look at animal life and there is often fighting in primates between the adult male (father) and the growing sons - it's a fight for territory usually. I think this happens with humans too - maybe your DP sees your son as a threat or is jealous of his relationship with you. These may not be conscious thoughts but they may well be there bubbling under the surface in his sub conscious.

I would urge you to put your son's well being first and foremost - he deserves this, and you as a mother should be there to protect him.

OMG I have just re-read your post and see that DP is your son's father, but it makes no difference, other than it makes it harder to understand. Yet DP has other children presumably from another relationship?

NanaNina - no, they are all our children. he just doesn't have the same response to the others - though they are younger and not as testing. I am protecting DS both at home, and by trying to find a solution. DH is not violent at all - far from it. I have known him most of my adult life and have never seen him behave like this before to anyone. I wonder if it's that he has no idea how to parent a pre-teen who is difficult and argumentative. I love DS deeply, but he is an opinionated, moody soul at the moment, and loves to wind his DF up. I want this is to change, and I think therapy may be a start. DH is happy to do this - I know he hates what he's doing, it depresses him, and after a big bust-up last night, he knows I will be pushing for this too.

Attila - I have answered you on the relationships board - but you ask what I do when it starts. I try to stop it, by asking them both to stop. I ask DH to come into a different room and tell him to lay off, I talk to DS and ask him to show more respect to his DF.

Hi GBB

I've just copied this reply over from your thread in relationships because I think it fits much better here. It might not make much sense without reading that one though!

I think I find it easier to cope with the rapid changes that go on at this age because I have her here 6 days, and have watched her change. I had to learn fast and I'm sure there will be plenty more steep learning curves to come. ExP and his DP just don't seem to keep up which I do understand as they are only with her one sixth of the time I am.

Nothing winds pre-teens up more than being treated like they are 5 years old. I can remember this myself from my own teenage years. Maybe you could suggest they start doing something together - ideally something the younger ones aren't "old enough" for. Also he's going to have to detach from the schoolwork thing, and let DS sink or swim on his own. When I've figured out how to do that one I'll let him know!

Has your DS just started secondary too? My DD has the worst case ever of end-of-term-itis! She's completely knackered all the time, and I think she's really struggled with the adjustment, longer days, extra homework and social pressure of secondary. I'm going very easy on her at the moment with things like housework etc. Perhaps your DP needs a reminder of what he's going through.

I had to consciously increase the cuddles, love, time spent together etc. Not that I didn't want to do it before, just that I'd got out of the habit and was shocked to realise we barely had a hug any more. Sounds like your DP has gone the same way, but it's very easy to bring it back, and it will do wonders for their relationship (and yours!)

Yes he's just started at a huge secondary school, not very keen on the homework, and not doing very well. DH who is wildly academic and driven, can't understand his sloppiness, lack of interest and lack of drive. They just irritate each other so much of the time. DS sits an eats a spear of broccoli with his fingers and it turns from "use a knife and fork" to a character analysis. DH says "do your piano practice" DS ignores and deliberately doesn't do it, knowing it'll wind DH up. DH compares DS to other siblings/cousins etc. I try to protect DS, and blame DH, he says he can't stop, but hates himself for doing it, and I get so angry with him for behaving like this. I expect DS to be annoying, I don't expect it from a grown man. I am a classic yoga loving veggie who hates conflict.

Your last reply made me smile because all your battles are exactly the same as the ones that go on in our house and in ExP's house, right down to eating with her fingers! She has now quit piano because we both got fed up of the rows, but only last night I was completely vile to her because she hadn't played her violin all week and rather than reminding / persuading / using good techniques I resorted to threatening that I was going to cancel her lessons in a really horrible way and then felt guilty and had to apologise this morning.

I actually have more sympathy with your DP than the good ladies on the relationships board. It doesn't sound like he's your classic abuser, he sounds like he is struggling with losing control as your DS grows up and isn't handling it in the best way.

Your DP needs to start focusing on the positive and giving praise wherever possible. For example, I'd be delighted if my DD would eat broccoli! I don't care how she gets it into her mouth.

Treehouselover thank you - just thank you.

I'm sure my post was unhelpful and I may have come across too definite, something that I get really frustrated about on MN so it IS unusual for me. Just to say though that emotional abuse is just as harmful as physical abuse, and you did say your DP's behaviour was bordering on bullying. However I hope you find a solution and I think your DP's willingness for counselling is a really good start. Sorry if I was too brutal.

Treehouselover I can see why GBB found your insightful post so helpful.

Ginger, your DH doesn't sound like an abusive man to me: he sounds like an exasperated parent of a pre-teen who isn't handling it well.

Since you say they were close, your DH is probably feeling upset and threatened and even a bit bereaved by the changes. When you've spent the younger childhood years giving and nurturing and hoping, it can be awful when you suddenly realise you're not in control any more, and they may not turn out to be the person you'd hoped. You may feel guilt that you did something wrong, or not enough. You may feel resentment that you put in all that effort, and it seems to have come to nothing. You may feel fear that they won't grow into a 'good' adult. You may feel terror that they'll 'go bad'.

Those feelings are perfectly natural, but as a parent you can't get stuck in them. You have to recognise them as your issues, and not make them someone else's problem. Particularly, you have to realise you can't dump them on your child, and if you are inclined to, you have to work out how not to do it...

Of course your DH may not know what he feels: it took me at least a couple of years to work it out myself. It sounds like he knows he's behaving badly, but not why, or how to stop. I had friends and counseling to help me; he would probably benefit from the same. :) He must do that work - I do not think it is optional; it is the 'adult' thing to do, and if he doesn't, he himself will stay a child or teenager, emotionally.

All the specific arguments and niggles - the school work, the table manners, the music practice - are neither here nor there: they can be dealt with, or not, practically. The reason it feels like bullying is because it isn't rational; it isn't about that thing, it's about the underpinning fears. And it 'belongs' to your DH, not your DS. If it wasn't broccoli, it would be the way he buttoned his shirt, iyswim. Your DH needs to separate out the things that need tackling in your son's behaviour, from the things that need tackling inside his own head...

I was also the compliant and hard-working child of a very driven and aspirational parent. When you yourself have reacted to parental demands by always striving to meet or exceed them, it can be at first unfathomable to find your own child doesn't do the same.

In the end, I recognised that my son's independence and determination to forge his own path, while uncomfortable for me, were healthy for him and just as likely to lead him to success in the end. In fact, though my DS appeared to totally reject all I could offer him (education, learning, work ethic, kindness, all my moral values...) and that was painful and difficult in many different ways, he is now, at 18, 'coming back' round to them - but his beliefs and actions are now his, rather than simply 'inherited', and I have hope that he will be the better man for it.

Maybe that will be some comfort to your DH, and you. :)

WOW flow4 - your post is one of the very best I have ever read on MN - the insight you have into this particular problem, and the possible remedies, are without doubt as far as I'm concerned second to none. I hope the OP comes back to see your post, and if so I am sure she can't fail to benefit from your perceptive comments on this issue. I learned a lot too, so thank you.

Goodness! Thank you, NanaNina. :)

NanaNina - please don't worry about your post. You were not too brutal at all. It's hard to sum up a situation on MN, and you were reacting to what you read, (perhaps I should have been clearer but didn't want to write pages) and bringing your own experiences to bear, which is all I can ask for.
Flow4, thank you for your post, and for making me feel that we are not the only family in the world to be going through this. Your advice is honest and sensible. I think it's hard for people to read the words "verging on bullying" and not to see a domestic tyrant, terrifying his entire family. My DH is not that man, and I am savvy enough to recognise the difference. We both want our DS to understand that hard work and focus can make the difference between a rewarding and happy life, and one which is tinged with regret, and bitterness at close friends and family's success. Not always the case, but more often than not. I think you are absolutely right that DS has to want it for himself, and DH needs to back off and get some help to work through why he's reacting the way he is.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to post. I am really grateful.

One of the most important things I have learned over the past five years or so is that although you may lose control, you do not need to lose influence. My son did, and didn't do, all sorts of things against my wishes, and there was nothing I could do about it... But I kept on giving him my oral messages^ - telling him what I liked and what I disapproved of - and although he seemed to ignore me at the time, it now turns out he was listening all along. :)

That should be moral messages, of course!