My dd's idol is up for a domestic assault charge, help me talk to her about this

[SkyBluePasta]

She is very into her music, one of her idols in a lesser known band is up for a domestic assault charge for beating an ex girlfriend. DD mentioned this and immediately said she doesn't believe it to be true. My hackles immediately went up so DH mentions the concept of innocent until proven guilty. Clearly this is a fair point so I asked DD how she will feel if he were proven guilty and she said she would think it was a misunderstanding and still believe him to be innocent.

She is 13. I feel upset and so far have been obviously cross about it which of course has made her even more defensive. She is an intelligent girl, do I talk to her about it in which case can anyone help me with what to say. Or do I just let it go and put it down to teenage infatuation?

I understand your worry , but you don't even know if he is guilty and your husband is right.

13 year old's don't have a real understanding of DV I would let it go, you do not know whether or not he is guilty so its pointless getting so riled by it.

I have 14 and 12 yr old DDs and I take an entirely firm line when the topic of domestic abuse comes up. The current "acceptability" makes me depressed for young women and girls. Did you see all the coverage about the rape and dv humour at Edinburgh festival?

Maybe it's an opportunity for a discussion about how you can still like the music but not some of the stuff about his life?

She doesn't know this person. All she has seen/heard is what his publicist has allowed her to see and hear.

Some people can be bad and produce beautiful work, whether that is music, painting or sculpture. Eric Gill created the stations of the cross in Westminster Cathederal, but while he was creating them he was having sex with his daughters. There is a debate about whether they should be removed because of this.

As burmac said you can still like the music and not his personal life.

As for not believing it was true, has she seen any episodes of the Osbournes? Can she believe the slightly doddery father has killed wild animals with his bare hands (and teeth) and attempted to murder his wife?

Anyway follow the case with her and discuss it.

But the thing is non of us know if it is true or not, surely damning someone before a trial isn't good either

Talking about DV that doesn't happen to celebs is a better education. maybe even point her towards the relationships boards, the insidious abuse that happens to normal people, is a better lesson than he's been accused of DV so he's definitely guilty which is not how you want to come across but are risking that.

You could broaden the discussion, away from something as emotive as her idol and into looking at other famous people who have wonderful skills in entertainment or the arts and other very dodgy areas of their lives.

You think a 13 year old should read the relationships board on here to help her understand DV, brighteyed?
No way do I think that is a good idea.

Just a suggestion, I wouldn't do it myself I'm just talking about a real understanding of DV.

Many 13 year olds would be able to cope with that, unless its a graphic one about sex or something. I'm talking more how EA is insidious and can quickly turn.

This is quite tricky really OP. I have boys and sometimes they will say something that makes me want to tear my hair out WRT DV or rape.

I never, EVER let it lie and I will always use such discussions as a springboard to educating them about these difficult topics. My youngest is 12 so I definitely think that 13 is old enough for you to start having these chats in an age appropriate fashion.

In this situation I think I would say that no one has a right to put their hands on another person full stop. If this man is proven to be guilty of abusing his partner then he isn't someone to look up to. I would also talk a bit about empathy for his partner and try to link that up with how she would feel if someone beat you up in the street, how upsetting and awful that would be. Obviously I would do this without getting graphic. Try to remain calm and not too emotional.

It's just a drip-drip-drip at this age really.

I would share your worries OP. If my DD said as much to me, I think it would be something I would have to address with her. Not really sure how though. The problem is that rose-tinted view of an idol often means whatever you say would not be listened to.

Maybe an example to use (and I realise your DD may not have a clue who these people are) is the Dennis Waterman/Rula Lenska relationship. Maybe explain that DW was a much loved actor, very popular in his 'hay day' and many people, at the time he was accused of beating RL, saw only the public persona/characters he portrayed and refused to believe RL. Explain how she was shunned/branded a liar, while he denied everything. Then point out how many years later he admitted it did happen. I'd then ask her how she thinks RL felt all those years she was deemed a liar when she was beaten, and the person who did it was lauded as too much of a good guy to have done this henious thing.

I think the whole innocent 'til proven guilty thing is a side issue. You cannot take that view while accusing the other side of the issue as being a liar/making this up. If you are taking seriously the notion that the charged person is innocent until proven guilty, you also need to remain neutral in reference to the person who has made the accusation too. The problem here is your DD is taking the innocent 'til proven guilty line as the basis to accuse the alleged victim of the DV as being a liar. That is something you need to address - it happens all too often that the 'innocent 'til proven guilty' has been taken to = victim is a liar.

I think the tact you need to take is that it is a serious offence that he has been accused of/charged with, and while the issue remains outstanding then your DD needs to refrain from making any judgement. The point about her not really knowing him is something that she needs to be made aware of, and that she equally doesn't know the accuser to say for certain she has lied/made the accusation up. As she has no direct knowledge/involvement, she needs to accept that if she wants to go along with innocent 'til proven guilty then she needs to apply that to both sides i.e. the alleged victim also needs to afforded the same consideration i.e. not deemed a liar.

Not sure if that helps.

I didn't Know that Rula in the past had been deemed a liar (probably wasn't alive then) yeah that's a good topic to talk about.

You could talk to her about general stats as well - that I think is it 1 in 4 women will be subjected to domestic abuse. So just by the law of probibility some of those women are going to be the girlfriends/partners/wives of pop stars, film stars, famous footballers. Just because someone has a good job and a nice public persona doesn't mean they're not a nasty shit behind closed doors.

bright, DW ex wife (who he left for RL) ripped her apart in some interview to argue that DW would never raise his hand etc. His daughter, the actress Hannah Waterman, also branded RL a liar, not willing to acknowledge that her own dad was capable of such behaviour, thus RL must have lied. Strangely enough, neither of those 2 women have commented since DW actually admitted to hitting RL. Not that they have to, but if they were willing to speak publicly about accusing her of lying, you would think they'd have the decency to come back and say how wrong they were etc.

SkyBlue, Chris Brown and Rihanna is another more recent case which resulted in a conviction for Chris Brown, might be a helpful reference.

Do you know much about the case? Has there been anything in the press that gives an impression of how much evidence they have against him?

As we know, the chances of a DV case getting to court is sadly v low - the police and CPS don't normally take someone to court unless they think they stand a chance of getting a conviction.

It would be a good time to talk to her about DV, about controlling personalities, about red flags etc. I have been meaning to write about this for some time - I will try and gather some information and write about it tonight. Will PM you the blog link if you think it would be useful.

Thanks everyone you've given me lots to think about. We've talked about the Chris Brown case before and both dd's were shocked that Rihanna would allow it to happen. I think that's why I was so surprised at dd's reaction. Unfortunately there isn't much information available about the details of the case as its not a very well known band, based out of the UK. I think I will wait and see what happens in court first.

SkyBlue, I don't want to pick on you or anything but what do you mean re your dds being shocked Rihanna "allowed" it to happen?

They were 12 & 10 at the time had never heard of DV, so that was how they saw it initially when they heard about it from friends at school. They couldnt understand why she didnt 'just leave'. Obviously we had long conversations about it and also talked about abuse not always being physical but mental/financial as well. I am fortunate enough to not have any direct experience of DV but I did have a very controlling boyfriend when I was younger, so we talked about that. We talked a lot about blaming the victim and also the whole 'she was asking for it' scenario.

I thought I'd done well. I didn't help the situation the other day as I got very cross with Dd1 so I am hoping she was reacting to me iyswim.

Ah, ok, so they got it then after you explained but now it is someone DD1 personally admires, she is finding it harder to believe.

Is it worth explaining to her the process that the woman as a witness will go through and asking whether she feels many women would do that for "petty" reasons eg jealousy? Would any of her friends make that choice to "get back" at a boyfriend? If they felt like it momentarily, would they really follow through all the stages of the investigation, the police and CPS decisions etc?

TheDoctrineOfEnnis, that's a really good point to make, and one I might use with my DD when the time comes for us to talk about stuff like that. Thanks for mentioning that.