You are a good mother but you are not a nice person

[itsspringtimenow]

Namechanged, regular poster. My DS is now 17. For years he has rarely said much to me, and when he has done it has often been rude. This has got worse in recent years which I thought might be worse than the usual teen stuff. I have asked him several times over the years if there is anything I have done to cause this, and been told either it doesn't matter or nothing. Last week after another episode of utter contempt things came to a head and I realised something had to give or we would never have an reasonable relationship in the future.

We had the talk this afternoon. He said I had been nasty, talked to him badly, over critical, and I was a good mother but not a nice person. He then said he felt like an inconvenience when he was growing up. He is right in that I was critical didn't always listen to him, took things out on him, and if I am honest I sometimes felt completely overwhelmed and irritated by having a child. My poor DS has obviously felt this strongly to say it.

As background, I have been a single parent from just before his birth, had a professional job I hated but which provided a steady income for us, have never received any financial or otherwise support from his father who left for another country to avoid 'responsibility' (his words). I lived with a partner from when DS was 2 until 7 who I thought was a good Dad, he was abusive (light) to me and I was severely depressed for years. My depression was not caused by this, but was exacerbated by it. I finally got him to leave, but then went through a series of bad life events, bereavement of my father, breast cancer (fine now), bullied at work for 2 years (yes, it happens to strong people too). I stopped working 2 years ago and apart from my relationship with my poor DS, life is fine.

I think I have abusive traits. I think I have been emotionally abusive in the past (laying many of my issues onto past partners), and only realised this a few years ago. MN has helped me to see a lot of patterns and I think my DM has narc traits that I have picked up as I had a very emotionless childhood. I am afraid I have done the same thing to my DS. He is upstairs crying, I can't comfort him. I am here wondering how the hell to could do this to my child.

Itsspring, I can hear and feel your distress. That must have been an incredibly difficult conversation and you will be reeling from it. And it doesn't sound like you have anyone there to hug you :( Have you got a counsellor or friend you can talk this through with? MN is great for advice and support, but if you are very confused or overwhelmed, it could be hard to work out what you really think and feel, amid all the strong opinions!

I don't know enough about you or your son to be sure of what's going on here, but a couple of things you say worry me...

Firstly, you seem full of guilt. I know all mothers are good at guilt, but you seem better than average! What I am hearing is that you are terribly worried about having harmed your son - you actually used the word 'abuse' - but from here, it sounds like you have brought your son up by yourself with no support from anyone, and done a good-enough job that at the age of 17 he himself tells you that you are "a good mum" :) Now, teenage boys are not generally known for appreciation of their mothers, so this is quite an achievement! (I really wouldn't worry too much about him also saying you are "not a nice person" - have a flick through some other threads to see what other teenagers are calling their parents! In my case, most of what I have been called isn't printable; the words that are include 'selfish', 'jealous' and 'evil').

You and your son seem to have extremely high expectations of you as a mother. You can't really do more for a 17 year old than you are already doing, really you can't: talking, listening, apologising for mistakes, offering hugs without expecting the offer to be taken up, providing for his needs... Even cooking different meals (which is something I personally have never been prepared to do)... And you have done this despite some very tough circumstances - doing it alone, relationship breakdown, depression. Frankly, you deserve a pat on the back at least, and definitely some appreciation - but it doesn't sound like you get any. Still you are hanging on in there.

You may well have things to apologise for and things you could have done differently and better (don't we all?!) and maybe even some major mistakes (I don't know)... BUT you ALSO have some major achievements and things you should feel proud of as a mother. It can be a thankless job, being a single parent of a teen without family support, cos there is no-one out there to appreciate you - and it's hard to appreciate yourself - but please try to be kind to yourself, especially if and when no-one else is being kind to you :) Please recognise the positive things you are doing, and have done, as well as the negative ones.

You mention that you have been in abusive relationships, both as the abuser and the victim. I think there is a very good chance that you are 'transferring' some of the emotions and especially fears from these past relationships to the situation you are in now with your son. You need to untangle what really 'belongs' here now, and what 'belongs' in the past, or with other relationships.

You talk about your own mum having narcissistic 'traits', and you say "I am afraid I have done the same thing to my DS". But to me, you do not sound at all narcissistic yourself. You sound much more like someone whose self-esteem and self-confidence is very low. You may find this page about narcissistic mothers useful, both to 'check' your own behaviour if you are worried about it, and to see how you may have been affected if your own mum was like this.

Most teenagers are, just by nature, extraordinarily narcissistic: utterly self-centred, obsessed with appearance, manipulative, a bit deluded about reality, temporarily a bit crazy... Their personalities and behaviour can be incredibly powerful and hard to live with, even for the strongest parent. Thank goodness they (most of 'em) grow out of it! It sounds to me like there is a possibility (I am not a psychologist, so of course I can't be sure, but just a possibility...) that living with your obviously intelligent, articulate, manipulative, narcissistic son has 'triggered' some very old emotions for you in a very confusing and powerful way - 'thrown you back' (so to speak) into being in a 'narcissistic' relationship - only this time of course you are the mother not the child, so you are naturally worried and taking responsibility for your own emotions and actions... And it may be (just possibly) that you are mistaking living with a narcissist again for being one, now that you are the mother... (Just a thought... Feel free to dismiss it, of course!)

Anyway, enough psycho-babble from me! Really, the most important thing I am saying is be kind to yourself. I'd pour you a glass of wine if it was evening not breakfast time but maybe a cuppa is more appropriate!

I think the fact he says you are a good mother shows some respect.

most teens are in that 'my parents are evil arrggghh' stage of life.

Not to be wierd but are you a nice person?? does he have a point??

I suffer depression and have seen others suffer it creates a lot of apathy and stress but I wouldn't say nastiness.

Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I am still here, I actually have been reeling and hit a wall this morning when I just crumpled completely. DS was asleep at the time, then I went for a walk. Flow your post is very insightful and has given me a lot to think about. It's never occurred to me before that most teens are narcissistic, it now seems so obvious that this will indeed create a reaction in me given my background. The point about high expectations of a mother by me and DS also sounds right.

Right now I don't know which way is up, have lost some confidence in my ability to see what is really going on, same for my own judgement. As to whether I'm a nice person, most of the time I am nice, sometimes I'm not. Friends think I'm a nice person, DS disagrees and yes, he has a point in some instances.

I'm glad you're still hanging on in there, Itsspring :)

I know exactly what you mean about not trusting your own judgement any more. I have sometimes had that feeling very strongly with my own 17 yo son. Teens (ones like my son, anyway!) are soooo certain that they are right, and their egos are so strong... As a single parent myself, I have often felt 'outweighed' by the force of my son's self-belief. I have thought that this is an age and stage when two parents have a real advantage, cos two adult egos probably just about balance one teen one! If we have a disagreement, he will talk teenage nonsense argue his case with such conviction, and accuse me of being unreasonable or evil or jealous or lying or totally wrong or the only mother in the world who insists on X, Y or Z... and if I am feeling even the slightest bit vulnerable, sometimes I find myself wondering whether he's right, and/or whether I am going a bit mad!

If you are trying to work out your feelings, uncovering things and making new discoveries about old issues, give yourself a bit of time... Things will fall into place and you will work out what you really think... You are NOT going mad; you are just trying to untangle some complex things... Your confidence in your own judgement will come back soon enough :)

The issue with teenagers is that they have an adults verbal reasoning capability with the emotional lability of a small child, like having a three year old who can tell you that she feels very hurt, almost abused, that you won't let her eat chocolate before her meal, she knows it won't spoil her appetite and, in fact, it's a breach of her human rights and an abuse of her dignity for you to be so dictatorial about what she may or mat not put in her mouth. Of course, a three year old cannot do that, so she will roll on the floor and scream instead. I do think that if teenagers had a preschool vocabulary, they would roll on the floor and scream too.

So, be there. Listen. Try to understand. But do not internalise the blame for what is basically him rolling on the floor and screaming like he did fifteen years ago. You cannot cure the emotional instability that comes with teenagers, you can only comfort and ride it out.

colditz I nearly spat tea at my laptop - thank you for that description and that laugh!

"But do not internalise the blame for what is basically him rolling on the floor and screaming like he did fifteen years ago" is brilliant advice.

The only hole I can see in your whole post is that some teens (including my son) sadly have physical tantrums if their verbal ones don't work :( My doors and walls have holes to prove it...

I'm getting the message . The thing about toddlers and teens is so true, there really is no point in arguing with a teen as they have an entirely different rationality which is centred all around them. The insight from all of you on this thread is amazing.

I'm concentrating on doing the right thing, keeping calm and not rising to any bait thrown at me. I can see DS is making an effort at some things e.g. he has cleaned off two plates after bringing them down from his room. It's a baby step.

Was the following incident last night unreasonable of me? By choice, DS does not share the living room space, unless he wants to watch football on a bigger screen. He has told me he does not want to watch tv when I am there. DS asked if he could watch a recorded film (recorder in living room) in half an hour. I had just sat down to watch a recording myself and offered 1 hr or in half an hour if he would move the small tv upstairs so I could watch something else live. Huge irrational argument on my viewing habits from DS who walked off. I assumed he would be back in half an hour so put my watching on hold. In the end, he didn't come down and stayed upstairs chatting on line/gaming. I then went and calming said I had I think maybe this was an olive branch in his own way so maybe should have said yes, and stayed downstairs. Alternatively, it was what it looked like and he was just throwing his weight around.

He sounds very troubled to me and on the verge of some OCD issues etc. I think he needs professional help.

FWIW you sound totally reasonable itsspring.

Even if your son doesn't want therapy perhaps it would be beneficial for you so you can unravel some of the issues and anger from your upbringing. you both sound like you've had a rough ride over the years and patterns of behaviour may have become ingrained in this time. The more you reach out to him the better your chances of having a good adult relationship, I dont think he's an surly teenager but perhaps a lonely, frightened boy who's in danger of growing into a lonely frightened man

Typo alert,I meant to say

I then went up and said calmly that as he had absented himself from sharing any space with me he couldn't expect not to compromise if he suddenly decided he wanted to watch something (he has not used the living room when I'm in the house for years).

I think this may have been an olive branch from him so maybe I should have said yes, let him watch in half and hour and stayed downstairs to watch with him.

His request was unreasonable, your refusal was reasonable :)

To give you a bit of advice (which I probably wouldn't be able to follow myself !)... I think you would probably have saved yourself some grief and effort if you had refrained from giving him any kind of explanation or justification, and just watched your programme. He sounds bright; he sounds perfectly able to work out that he was being unreasonable... By justifying yourself, you are perhaps signalling (to yourself as well as him, perhaps) that he has a right to impose his will on you, unless you can give him a very good reason or persuade him why not... Your justification gives him the power in that situation... Your instincts sound right, up to the point of the argument, and if you could have stopped there, you would have perhaps given him a healthier 'message' - i.e. his desires don't 'trump' yours, and you won't engage with him if he tries to bully you.

As I say, I'm not sure I could follow my own advice in a similar situation... Teens are extraordinarily good at 'pushing buttons' and 'drawing you in' even when you are determined not to be provoked! Also, when you've been a doting single parent of a small child, and your life has revolved around his/her needs, it can be hard to re-assert (or even remember!) your own needs as they grow older... But I think it's really important, unless you want your child to grow up to be a selfish g*t!

BTW, I don't think your son sounds 'troubled' or 'disturbed' - except in the sense that many teens are ... Thankfully (for my sanity) I know several other parents who have bright, bored kids, and they frequently seem to behave like your our sons for a few years, usually between 14 and 18... People who don't live with such teens tend to be shocked by their manipulativeness, selfishness and bizarre/outrageous behaviour... But it does apparently pass :) Fingers crossed!

My son actually came into the living room last night and although we didn't do anything together (DS headphones, phone, me laptop), we co-existed. Also no nastyness all day :) More baby steps. I know that to many on here this must sound trivial but this is about DS feelings and now it must be how we recover from the past.

This

He then said he felt like an inconvenience when he was growing up. He is right in that I was critical didn't always listen to him, took things out on him, and if I am honest I sometimes felt completely overwhelmed and irritated by having a child.

completely reminds me of my relationship with my mum. And I love her and I'm sure she loves me too (although it's taken a lot of convincing, and even now I don't really feel it). I can't see us having many problems in five or ten years. Just weather the storm....
And you are human, and you were depressed and went through a bloody tough time, so if that's all he felt- god- you're a bit like a saint!

Make him read this thread, lots of wise words and good advice on it.

Oh and also- the "good mum" part is absolutely obviously- and so is the "nice person" part, yes you are, from your posts- you sound thoughtful and caring and really focused on your son and that is being a Very Nice Person :)
It's a standard sort of insult- "I can't pick on you and make you feel bad for neglecting me, but I want to lash out in some other way"- which is really meaningless. Please don't let it get to you. It's about him, not you.

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