Eldest son making life difficult for siblings (and us) what do I do?

[whenigrowup]

Compared with so many other problems being expressed mine does seem small but, having been through a low ebb recently, I seem to have lost confidence in knowing how to deal with situations so could really do with some insight and advice.
My eldest son has always been a difficult character to deal with. He's that difficult mix of arrogance (often extremely so) and insecurity. He is the eldest of 3 and has never really been close to either siblings. After much post-16 ups and downs he got a full time job and seems fine with it (brilliant, although budgeting is not a word he uses). His relationship with his sister and brother has recently got worse. He constantly strives to undermine them verbally. He'll walk into a room and mutter things under his breath. My daughter (who is17) finds this very difficult and hurtful. They are both very different personalities and styles and he constantly criticises and insults her. He's also done this to his brother (15). They both now avoid him or tip toe around him. Arguments flare up after such encounters.

My dilemma is that, on the one hand I know I should leave siblings to sort their problems out, but, on the other I can't stand by and see my other children feeling uncomfortable in their own home. I feel I should be able to do something about this but talking to eldest son is so difficult. He ends up shouting and swearing at us and making out that he is the one who is being singled out as the bad guy.

I want my children to feel ok in their own home and don't want to be impotent to deal with this. His father feels as I do. It seems ridiculous that this is seemingly one person in a family of five who is causing problems and I just can't seem to figure out how to deal with it; do I come down hard and say, enough you have to leave, or, do I try to understand what is underneath this verbally aggressive behaviour and be more supportive? Anybody been here?

I have been there with dd. I point it out to her every time. And I also say, would you stand back and let YOUR children be treated this way. Seems to make her think.

I really do sympathise with you and your family on this one... We have experienced a similar situation with our eldest of three children. He has now gone away to University, and life is so much calmer and pleasant at home. The other two children are beginning to develop as individuals and we as parents feel much calmer about life! My eldest came home for Christmas, and we were very nervous about what it would be like, but thankfully the experience of having lived independently has had a positive effect on him.

Perhaps it is time for your eldest to think about some independence? Just a thought

i agree with Jobforlife, maybe its time that he got his own independence .. we have a similar situation but with the middle child, when she is home its like we all walk on egg shells to keep her happy

Thank you so much for replying, it really does help. I am having a bloody awful day to put it frankly. Daughter at college so my husband and I took the opportunity to try to talk with eldest. We'd all had a huge blow up yesterday involving daughter, son and us. Without going into all the details son had got extremely angry and abusive towards us because he felt we'd interjected during an argument with his sister and unfairly taken her side in the matter. We've just had an awfully unsuccessful attempt at trying to sort the whole thing out. Us starting by trying to address the matter of how quickly he becomes so verbally aggressive, him getting more and more agitated about how frustrated he felt that we were assuming his sister was in the right. The whole thing snowballed. He continually said that we'd got a firmly entrenched view of him as the bad guy and that he felt this would never change, that we were oblivious to how his sister manipulated situations. Oh dear, I'm probably massively overreacting but I'm so upset. All I've ever wanted is to do my best and for my children to feel ok. I'm now unsure what to believe and how to deal with this situation. I'm doubting my own judgement and. most badly, that I've maybe done my eldest son an injustice (not all the time but perhaps repeatedly) enough for him to feel that neither his father or I ever really believe him. It's awful to think that the way we have treated him has maybe contributed to his lack of self esteem which is buried under all this arrogance and aggression. I really don't know what to think. I feel that it is perhaps time for him to find move out and have his own space but I'm so unhappy with the guilt that we could have messed up in his upbringing. My relationship with my daughter isn't perfect but it's good. But now I'm worried that maybe she has manipulated me in certain situations and that I'm never seeing a clear picture.
So sorry to ramble on but it is all a bit raw today.

Would it help you and your DH to step away and spend a little time deciding what type of atmosphere you want in your home? Your DCs are no longer babies. They are now all of an age where they should be capable of discussing any subject reasonably without resorting to bickering and snide remarks.

You are now a household of 5 adults/nearly adults

You could think about setting some ground rules for the whole household. Ours, though unwritten, look something like this:

• courtesy at all times
• no muttering under the breath/smart arse remarks/sniping
• no swearing between anyone

You're right that they are no longer babies and that discussion should be the rule of the house. Your rules sound like ideal ones and we have tried to establish similar things here but it all gets forgotten when they're at logger heads. How old are your children and when the temperature rises between them, how do you enforce the house rules (albeit unwritten ones)?

What are the reasons for them being at loggerheads? Do they all take turns/contribute to chores? What are the hotspots? If its something like what to watch on television then they are of an age where they can have TVs in their own rooms. If you have Sky then it is possible to access this on laptops.

My DCs are a little younger than yours - 16, 13, 12. I suppose the thing we do is stop the temperature rising, we stop the sniping at the first moment and also we do insist that they apologise if they have spoken sharply to each other and if we have been unreasonable we also apologise. Personality also helps, we are all quite peaceable people and just never shout at each other.

The rules are agreed between us all. Interestingly, DCs also insist on the courtesy themselves.

Ultimately it is you & your DH's home. You have the right to set the rules. You have the right to say 'enough now' the first time that anyone is snippy.

Just another thought, does everyone have private space to go to? That privacy is another of our 'rules', no one goes into anyone else's room without permission. If DCs are out I might check for laundry but if they are in then I knock as does everyone else.

If it isnt really possible for your eldest to move out yet is it possible to create a sort of bedsit for him within your house? Give him a bit more mental space in that he doesnt have to share as much. IKEA can be a good source of the sort of furniture that might work. It doesnt have to be luxury just more privacy.

whenigrowup, you sound like a very caring and loving parent. It sounds to me like your son is struggling with dealing with his own relationship with you and your OH, and is taking things out on you all... including an attempt to sabotage your healthier relationship with your daughter. He has to understand that all relationships are not identical. He obviously needs a great deal of reassurance, but he's going about it the wrong way!

Being the eldest child can be difficult.. I remember my eldest stating that he never asked for siblings - and this was when he was 16!

GnomeDePlume is essentially suggesting a workable solution in giving him more 'space', although I'd think of it as breathing space for the rest of the family as much as for him. As I say, in our family, things improved drastically once my DS had gone away to Uni. I miss him whilst he is away, and I NEVER thought I'd say that a year ago!

Oh, I totally agree that it would be breathing space for you all but I would sell it to your DS as breathing space for him!

I would insist on ground rules for the house. The need for siblings to sort out their own problems does not trump your right to have a bearable atmosphere in your own house. So basically, what Gnome said: I would intervene straightaway if those rules were broken. Just as I would say something straightaway if someone lit a fag in our non-smoking household. And the den idea seems a good one too.

I have found a wonderful phrase for my eldest who can also be like this sometimes i say to her DID YOU MEAN TO BE SO RUDE I hadnt seen it before untill coming on Mn . It stops her in her tracks and it defuses those horrible bickering snidey comments , she is nearly 19 and can be really cutting to her sister ,

Would it help if only one of you sat down to talk to him? I have similar problems with my eldest and I think the feeling that you're both 'ganging up on him' probably makes him more defensive.

I find my DS is more receptive if its just me or DH at any one time. I think it feels like we're having a grown up discussion between two people, rather than being 1 kid vs 2 parents, which he has no hope of 'winning'.

That's a good point Epilator... I also found I could 'talk' to my eldest on fb chat and get more out of it than a face to face conversation - sounds dreadful doesn't it, but I think the fact that we weren't in the same physical space as each other really helped!

IMO nothing wrong with lack of face-to-face. The best conversations I have had especially with DD1 have been in the car, no eye contact and no escape!

I like the idea of one-to-one and have squirrelled that one away for in case anything comes up.

jobforlife , Talking to them is talking to them i get more out of my dd in text that i would ever do in a sit down chat, she goes all defensive and thinks im having a GO , SIGH So whatever works in communicating is fine in my book ,

I think it was in 'Raising Boys' the author suggests that standing side by side to talk is often easier, as its less confrontational, so in the car or while washing up together is ideal, as its not a big "right, let's sit down and have a serious talk" scenario. I do find that we have some good chats in the car as there's no escape but he's never helped with the washing up - might try that!

Just another thought... I'd always challenge rude and horrible behaviour, BUT I sometimes think they have to go through this stage as a part of distancing themselves from you emotionally. When leaving home becomes a reality, it gets a bit scary, so they seem to have to persuade themselves - and you - that they should go. After all, why leave a home where everything is sweetness and light?! How much easier to leave if you have made living at home unbearable!

That book 'Get out of my life - but first run me and Kevin into town' was helpful on this...

Thank you so much for all your insightful comments! Lots to think about and act on. I think my saddest feeling is seeing his two siblings seemingly suppress their own personalities in order not to find a way of co-existing. Will definitely try to develop their own space more in order to have more breathing space. 'Side by side' conversations, good one and should definitely help with the problem of confrontation. Thank you all :)

'in order TO find a way of co-existing'

flow4 I think you may have a good point there... In our family, we have always made it clear that the financial responsibility for our dcs finishes at the end of year 13 at school, or earlier if they were to choose to leave education... That might seem mercenary but it means they are having to focus their minds on their future and can't drift along. I also got my DS doing his own washing/ironing, cleaning his bathroom etc for a good year before he left home in preparation for living independently. I'd of liked to get him doing these chores for the benefit of all the family really, but that was a step too far :) Obviously, we wouldn't turn our back on any of them if they were genuinely in need, but we expect them to attempt to live independently from then. Unfortunately, we live in a country where they can't learn to drive until they are 18 and the public transport is not great, so yes, we will have to continue to ferry them around more than they (or we) would ideally wish.

@when It sounds like you are trying very hard but this is about the millionth thread I have seen recently (ok exaggeration) about nasty, bossy, controlling older siblings causing problems for their sweet, angelic, innocent younger siblings.

It almost drew a tear to my eye when you said: "He continually said that we'd got a firmly entrenched view of him as the bad guy and that he felt this would never change, that we were oblivious to how his sister manipulated situations."

I wish I had been so articulate about my feeling when I was his age. My sister's manipulation is laughed off as 'just how she is' and as adults we have no relationship outside of family events.

it is very very hard to be the first child to reach adulthood to parents who are still raising 'children' and though I don't doubt some of his behaviour is damaging I wonder if your younger children will be made to feel quite so awful for behaving in a fairly normal way for a 17 year old.

You need to intervene with siblings but ultimately this is about your son's relationship wth his parents - if he is insecure he is not getting what he needs from the parental relationship so you need to look at this

I am your eldest son. well, not actually but figuratively.

I am the eldest of three.

My second brother manipulates and manoevers and has done all his life.

He's still doing it.

I am the bad guy and I always will be. I am the scapegoat for everything. Literally everything. He is able to snipe and drop the bomb and walk away and as a child I reacted and was always the bad guy. I no longer react - I do not allow anyone to treat me the way he did any longer.

Well, he might be, I don't know. I no longer have a relationship with him at all. Or really with my parents.

Please sort it out - look at your son the way he behaves, your relationship with him and look at how your daughter behaves and ask yourself honestly if you have perhaps been guilty of falling into the trap of always blaming him.

@hat I feel exactly the same way you do though I am trying to maintain my relationship with my parents as we are quite close when all this bollocks comes into it.

OP, I don't mean to make you feel even more terrible than you do, but I hope that when your youngest child is an adult you try to review objectivley their behaviour and the way you treated all of your children. Our posts have shown your reaction is completely normal and common, but if handled badly then quite destrutive in the long run.