WWYD my average grade teenager has decided she'd like to do medicine!!

[mosschops30]

Would you wholly support their decision even if you knew that academically they werent up to it?

Dd is a bright girl, but doesnt woek to herfull potental. She is aiming for c's in most of her gcses and may get an A/B in a couple of subjects.

She always wanted to do teachin which is well within her capabilities, but now shes got her heart set on medicine and knows she has to really raise her game at gcse and then get 3 A's minimum to get into university.

I am supporting her, and would be proud whatever she does, but should i discuss with her the possibility that it may not happen?

Thank you PixieOne Leaf, as he is doing Alevel and coping very well(based on recent result) I suppose I have to just support him and see what comes of it. Do you think there is a chance of applying post A level with result instead of prediction?

I know of someone who got into medical school with AAB alevels
She starts this september after a gap yr.
Her dad is a Dr and she went to well known public school.

Amazing eh?

Off the top of my head I think DD! had 6 A/A* at GCSE and the rest were Bs. She made the mistake of taking Btec Art which is four GCSEs worth (and got a distinction = A) but on the UCAS forms the Btec counts for nothing..they didn't count it as the four As it was worth (or she would have had 10)

She applied to Cardiff, Southampton, Brighton and Sussex and Peninsula. For Cardiff her GCSEs ruled her out before interview (they said so on the rejection) and she was gutted as she had no idea.. so it is very important to check out each med school's individual criteria before applying. Ironically her A level grades (A*) would have got her into Oxbridge but she absolutely didn't want to apply to either as a) we live in Oxford b) they have lecture based learning (as opposed to problem based) and have no patient contact til the 3rd year.

Peninsula is one of the newest med schools and has shot up the league tables (8th this year) with its hands on problem based approach that she knew would suit her.
The different med schools have very different selection criteria up to and including, interview. All require the UKCAT exam and/or the BMAT and the scores need to be high.

For the UKCAT I HIGHLY recommend getting a practice book from Amazon!!!! My DD said it really helped her to get a high score!

Really it's about researching the med schools.. see what their criteria are :) Peninsula were heavy on interview and you had to really be clued up and prepared to talk about ethics..they give scenarios and the candiate has to do an essay and a 3 panel interview.

BUT don't be put off by having less than all As as only few schools preselect in this way (most recognise that GCSEs don't predict doctor potential!)

Relaxmum... I'd say he should go for it:) Just tell him to pick carefully and look for the schools that don't reject on GCSE scores alone and which interview in a way he is likely to enjoy. The studentroom forum www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=195 is a good source of info..

My DD1 is LOVING it (even after being very homesick at first) and is learning so fast and has had hands on experience from the beginning.. so worth the stress of getting her there:):)

It seems to me some times it is just luck or Unis look for something more than a string of A/A. My DS1 got to top russel group uni with 1A 3A 4B 2C for Maths. He was told by his teachers he was over ambitious. But I'm glad he gave it a go and got A*AA in his A level. I just wish the same will apply to DS2. Even though Medicine is more compitative than Maths

I agree with almost everything Medusa says, having 1 daughter in her 1st year at med school and another in Yr 13, with 2 offers for medicine so far. The only thing I would add is that a lot of the unis don't want only pure science/maths A levels, in fact they like you to have a contrasting one as well as the 2 science/maths, eg my DD1 did French and DD2 Geography, several of them said this at open days/in the prospectus.

Relaxmum, only going on my/DDs experience, but that doesn't really sound high enough tbh :( to give you an idea of the successful applicant's grades, DD1 got 9As and 4As at GCSE, AAA at A-level (only needed AAB to get in though) DD2 11 As and 1 A. A friend of my DD1 got 4A*s, 2Bs, rest As and only got one interview, no offer though obviously I don't know if that was because of other things like the personal statement.

ggirl, AAB was my DD1's firm choice offer last year, so same application cycle as the person you know... not that unusual I don't think, though this year they have gone up so DD2 will definitely need 3As.

OP I think the suggestions of getting some work experience now are very good; if she does apply for medicine she'll need to have done a good 2-3 years somewhere to show commitment, and if not then she'll have hopefully got an idea of some other possible healthcare careers. Have a look into Medlink, it's a course run at Nottingham Uni all about medicine and applying, both DDs went, had a great time and learnt a lot about it and it would definitely give your DD a better idea of the 'academicness' required. Does cost quite a bit though. It must be very hard for you though, I'm not sure what I would have done in your position. My DDs were/are very lucky, still don't know where they get the brains from as it's certainly not me or DH!

Thank you for so much Medusa!! I will definetly let him read your post. He is determind to come of A level with better result than GCSE. I think he matured and undestood importance of hard work recently. He didn't do no work in GCSE. Thank you

Sorry, just to add, not all the med schools require UKCAT, Birmingham, Bristol and Liverpool don't have that or BMAT. DD2 chose to apply to these ones as she didn't do well enough on the UKCAT to apply to the others, so it's worth bearing in mind that poor UKCAT does not necessarily mean no offers.

Medusa my DD1 adores it too, but sometimes I can't believe she's actually really there, after all the UCAS, interviews, work exp, offers... still a bit amazed to be honest!

Thank you ChishAndFips welldone to your DDs. I suppose he will try and if not atleast his A level choice are well rounded and he will be able to go to other routes. Meanwhile we just had to support him and be there when needed. to be honest, I am glad he picked himself up from GCSE and upped his game. I was more worried the luck of ambition in GCSE will continue to A level. thank you everyone and OP I think there is time for you DD to improve on her GCSE.

Can I just add that the role of anatomical pathology technician, could possibly be a good one. The actual training roles/jobs are as rare as hen's teeth, they basically assist the pathologist. I have wanted to become one of these since I heard of the possibility, but honestly the vacancies are very rare.

I do remain on the lookout though.

It's not too late to buck up those GCSE's but, assuming she is on target for 3 A grades at A level by the time she applies, then she needs to be careful where she applies. Birmingham med school, for example, won't even look at a student with fewer than 8 or 9 A*s at GCSE. Others are more open to late developers and will consider predicted A level grades rather than GCSE grades.

My DD actually had very little work experience under her belt. It's hard to come by. She got three med school offers though despite that.

Your DD will need some work exp. but it's less important than good grades. It's also good if she can show some ability to work in a team.(Duke of Ed's is one way but DD used youth orchestra to demonstrate the same ability.)

Graduate entry to med school really is difficult. Far fewer places.

Chemistry A level is essential and one other science but they're generally not bothered about Biology. Physics and/or Maths is better.

See how she does at GCSE. If it then looks like she'll do well at A-level try and find some work experience. Our GP let DD shadow him. Try asking a Funeral Director. That would be a good one for someone wanting to do Pathology.

The next step is UKCAT which she should take in August or Sept just before Y13. The result in that, along with the GCSE outcome, should then determine the application strategy. Different med school have different selection proceedures. Some don't bother with UKCAT but choose according to GCSE A*s.

It is important to get to grips with the strategy so that she doesn't waste any UCAS choices.

For now, just get her to concentrate on getting the best possible GCSE results . One step at a time. It's a lot to take in in one gulp.

Also meant to say that Chishand Fips is right about them liking applicants to have some breadth to their exam choices and their outside interests.

DD did Chemistry, Further Maths and German but she is also a keen musician and it was clear at interview that they wanted someone with a strong passion for something outside medical studies.

She got one offer of AAA, another of AAB and one of AA. But the bar is steadily rising. The uni that made the AAB offer (Manchester) has already raised its requirement to AAA for this year's applicants. The AA offer was surprising but clearly they accepted the Maths A level she already had and made the offer for Chemistry and German. She got A*AA and went to her first choice.

I would bet that no one stands much chance now without A* in Chemistry.

It is horrendously competitive but they do seem to like a candidate who is a little bit different so long as there is obvious potential.

I would support and encourage her.

1. If her dream to do Medicine propels her to pull out all the stops for her GCSEs and she gets the best grades she possibly can - this is a good thing.

1. If she is really, really determined, she could find a way - others have posted on the specifics of various routes into Medicine. Where there's a will etc

1. I don't think it's your job to limit her horizons. If, in the fullness of time, she discovers for herself that a career in Medicine is not going to be a viable option for her, then she'll start working out for herself what her Plan B will be (with your love, help, support etc). Personally, I'd try to always be as positive, upbeat and "you can do anything you want if you want it badly enough" as possible about all of her ambitions and dreams. Whatever pans out in her life, she'll know that her Mum was always behind her. I realise that this sounds a bit cheesy/ schmaltzy but they are all such sensitive little flowers and sometimes it's good to tell them all this stuff.

Good luck.

Thank you all for such amazing posts overnight. It seems i actually know very little.

So can anyone give me a step by step of what i should be doing for dd.

Do i first get her to look at possible universities she would be interested in (i think she s favouring london and newvastle at the moment)

Then what is the UKCAT? Does she do that through school or is it something i have to sort out separately?
When do we start looking at prospectus?
She is year 10 atm.

The funeral director work experience is a great idea. I also know the consultant pathologist at my hospital as he let me observe a particularly grim post mortem during my nurse training. I also think a nursing home would be a good option.
She is doing her duke of edinburgh, doing voluntary work with a local playscheme, she has held down an early paper round for 18 months, started a book group in her school, and is an active member of the debate club and consumer group.

I honestly dont think she will manage A level mathematics, sciences yes, but not maths, is that compulsory for medicine. She is excellent at history and geography which i think would be other A level choices alongside chemistry and biology

mosschops30

It sounds to me like she is doing all the right things and she's only in year ten so you have plenty of time but to find out more, but you could:

1. Speak to your school careers advisor and ask for guidance and advice

1. Get a book out of the library/ from Amazon called something like "how to get into medical school". There's one called "The pushy mother's guide on how to get into medical school" It'll explain everything.

1. Look at the student room website - fantastic resources and great forums. Everything you need to know, really.

My DD is currently L6/ Year 12 and wanting to do Medicine, her profile is:

Academic:
Did v well in GCSES
Doing AS levels in Chemistry (compulsory for Medicine), Biiology (compulsory for SOME med schools, so sensible to do it to not shut doors in yourself), Maths (not compulsory - she just likes it) and French (can be good to have a non-science - show you're an all-rounder.
Will do Chem, Bio, Maths to A2

Volunteering:
2 years helping with cubs
18 months volunteering at a care home

Shadowing:
1 week GPs
1 week non-clinical hospital staff
1 week dentists
1 week hospital consultants

Extra curricular:
Grade 7 trumpet - will take Grade 8 this summer
Plays in jazz band (evidence of working as a team - v important)
Completed bronze and silver DofE, Gold will be finished this summer

Other:
Attended Medlink

Good luck to your daughter!

PS My daughter's school does not perp for or organise the UKCAT - we have to do it.

DOn't worry about it yet - she'll take it in the summer in between Year 12 and Year 13.

There's a book ("600 questions") that you can get to help prepare/ practice then you register her (via the UKCAT website) with a company called Pearson who have test centres all over the country. She can take the test - it's two hours long and you get the result immediately. You may only take it once in any application cycle. Most universities look at your score but not all (Birmingham, Bristol and Liverpool don't)

Oxford, Cambridge, UCL and Imperial ask you to do a different test called the BMAT. You take this is in the November after your UCAS form has gone in (deadline 15 October of your year 13) and get the result in December. Again, you can't re-take it.

OP "I am supporting her, and would be proud whatever she does, but should i discuss with her the possibility that it may not happen?"

Even if she had a gazillion A*, it still may not happen. It is a valuable life-skill to learn to plan for all eventualities and to not put all eggs in one basket.

Thank you cyril. How did you arrange the shadowing? And at what age did she do this?
Did she need crb?
It should be easy to organise with some of our nicer docs in work

What is medlink exactly? The website isnt that easy to read

can't comment on doing medicine

however i was an underachiever at school and my parents always discouraged me from doing difficult things because they didn't think i was up to the challenge / didn't want me to get disappointed etc.

i can tell you that i'm an over-achiever now just wish i'd had more encouragement from my parents instead of this doubt of theirs hanging over me. very debilitating.

if you think she's not up to the maths can you send her to a tutor?

i don't think this is beyond her by any means. please give her lots of encouragement and deal with the disappointments when they happen and not before.

mosschops I'm a nurse too and we have recently had loads of 6th formers shadowing our surgeons. She won't need a CRB as it's informal and she will not actually be doing anything to a patient and will be fully supervised.

mosschops

Re my DDs shadowing:

1. Non-clinical hospital staff - our local large hospital has an official scheme to give kids who wish to do medicine access to this sort of experience - arranged it by telephoning their HR department. Lots of forms to fill in and had to have all her jabs up to date and provide refs. She did this summer after GCSEs, aged 16

1. GPs - two friends of ours had her for two and three days respectively. Every patient was made aware and asked before the consultation if they would prefer her to step outside - no-one minded. She spent time with the Health Visitor in the baby weighing clinic and went out with the district nurse too. Very kind of our friends to have her. I had asked at our own GPs surgery and was told that they never do this, so it's luck of the draw... Just have to ask everyone and everywhere. She did two days aged 15 in the summer holidays after year ten and another three days aged 16 in the summer holidays after GCSEs

1. Dentists - she wrote (I helped her with the wording) to four different dentists and followed this up with phone calls. One agreed to have her for a week's work experience. She was put with the same lady every day doing the same sort of check up every day. This lady hated her job and moaned constantly. My DD tried to speak to other people to ask about seeing some implants/ more interesting stuff (and to be with someone less negative) but it never happened. Put her off dentistry completely - she had been considering it before this... Did this summer after GCSEs, aged 16.

1. Consultants - our lovely friend arranged a full week for her - she spent time in lots of different departments and operations and came back absolutely full of her experience. This was the experience that clinched it for her. She did this in the Christmas holidays, aged 16.

Do have a look at The Student Room - they have a "wiki" section with masses of info about every detail of applying to med schools.

Cyril

My dd spent 2 weeks with a consultant friend of ours.
It completely put her off doing medicine.So invaluable lesson.
Bloody glad she did it -cos you really have to want it to put in all the hard graft.

What should your DD be doing for the next 4 terms to get into med school?
Work at getting the best GCSE grades she can and continuing the extra-curriculars she's already doing.

What should you be doing?
Exactly what you are doing - asking around, doing some reaearch and encouraging her. The Student Room is very useful for info - and very addictive.

UKCAT is the UK Clinical Aptitude Test. It's computerised, lasts about an hour and costs you £75. Someone is getting very rich off the back of this one. It was done here in the same seedy office that DD took her driving theory test in. School doesn't tutor.
Candidates practise for this and so the average mark keeps rising year on year. Some med schools don't require it, some use it as a weeding out tool and some use it as a tie breaker.
It's usually done in the late summer before Y13.

BMAT is another aptitude test but more mathsy/sciencey. It's horrendous and, again, you fork out a fee. This one is a sit down, pen and paper exam done in an exam centre, probably the school, but don't expect school to tutor. You can get past papers.
Only a very few med schools require BMAT so don't panic about it.
The problem with it is that they take it after they have submitted their UCAS forms so there's no way of telling whether they will pass high enough for the unis they applied to. DD took a risk in applying to two BMAT schools. If she hadn't got at least average marks in all three sections she would have lost 50% of her choices. (You can only apply for 4 med schools on a UCAS form.)

Worry about the personal statement and interviews further down the line!

There are about 30 med schools in the UK so have a look at the list on TSR (The Student Room) and think about where she would like to live for 5 or 6 years. Check where they actually do the clinical part of the course. She might fancy living in York and find she's actually in Hull. (Nothing against Hull!)

Check the entry requirements and selection proceedures in the prospectus and how the course is taught. PBL is Problem Based learning. Most courses contain some PBL and some contain a lot. Some students don't like PBL because they feel abandoned to their own devices. Some love it.

Most of this you don't need to know yet and you can always get advice at each stage.

My DD was a back-runner and succeeded. Yours can too.

Cyrilsneer - Your DD did well to get such varied work experience.

We're a long way from anywhere and have no medical contacts - except one whose specialism is so 'male' that it would have been utterly inappropriate for a young girl to shadow him. I didn't ask and he didn't offer and we remain friends!

We kept coming up against insurance difficulties for under 18s. (DD didn't turn 18 until A-levels were over.)

Our GP took her in and she thoroughly enjoyed it. No patient refused to let her sit in and she did house calls and hospital visits with him too. She 'helped' with smear tests and got close up views of cervixes! I was due for a smear the week after and I was fed up with hearing about the brushes. DH was treated to a description of a prostate examination which he really didn't want to hear. She came home each day fizzing with excitement.

Mosschops - The amount of work experience is not important. What matters is what they can demonstrate they have learned from it so a list of impressive experience on the personal statement will be no good without some evidence that the student gained more than ticks on a hypothetical list. Quality not quantity.

Have the rest of you here with DD's at med school heard Sandy Toksvig talking about her DD?

'Find a liver? She can't even find her shoes!'