Hermes lawsuit

[learieonthewildmoor]

Hermes is being taken to court because apparently they won’t even show you a Birkin bag if you don’t buy a bunch of other stuff.
Do any other high end brands hold you hostage? It seems extraordinary to me.

@Opine but you've not just spent 9k if you have to buy the other products first. Sure, you'll make a profit if you resell your Birkin, but that's not why customers are buying it - it's for the cachet of being seen as important enough to buy it in the first place.
The brands are pissing themselves laughing and customers can't see it. But, your money, your choice. I think there are probably easier ways to make money on an investment.

@LadyBird1973 yes but I said, I’ve never bought anything I don’t want. The Hermes ‘game’ is a thing but it hasn’t really been for me. Last year I bought the bag that I ‘wished’ for and a pair of shoes. That’s all.
I could sell the 8k bag I bought for 20k by the end of the day.
There are many articles online, from bonhams etc, that will confirm there is currently no better investment.

@Opine if you are truly only buying what you love then fair enough. I don't think I could get past the attitude of the brand tbh, as if they're doing you a favour in letting you spend your money!

I had an ex who got sucked into this and it was a ridiculous nightmare. For Rolex we used to have to buy ‘lesser” models, and quite regularly, in order to get in the waiting list for the actual watch he wanted. They used to have corporate dinners and events (like the golf) we used to have to attend and then at those dinners there was a certain number of rarer watches you could purchase. The gossip was rife though and you weren’t allowed to just sell them on as that was akin to kicking puppies. We used to have to pop in to the shop regularly just to schmooze the sales staff. It was genuinely ridiculous and such a performance. Porsche do the same - and it was the same bloody people at all the events just trying to out perform each other.

Buying an item that immediately escalates in value multiple times and will last more than a generation sounds like eye opposite of thick to me.

People buying bag after bag over the years only to have them end up in landfill are the fools

If people think these items will hold or increase these values long term, I've got a bridge going for an absolute bargain.

@chuggachug it's not the buying of the bag that's really the problem, it's the being willing to jump through hoops while the retailer acts like they're doing you a favour, which is the issue for me.
The people buying Birkin bags aren't usually doing it with a view to making money - not if they've had to buy loads of other stuff first to even get in the list. They are buying it for the 'prestige' of being seen as important enough by the lines of Hermes. I'm sorry, but those people are letting the retailer laugh at them. No bag is inherently valuable - in chasing it, customers are enabling the retailer to create an artificial rarity, which they then sell at an inflated price.
Now i fully accept that some products are beautiful and you might want it for itself and love it forever. Or a person might be willing to suck up the snotty attitude from the manufacturer in order to acquire and sell it for profit - that's personal choice. But to me, it's buying into your own mockery.

@TheLeadbetterLife ive just sold two bags I’ve had since 2009 for over double. Both in good condition but worn. I have another that Bonhams have valued at treble because the leather and colour are rare but I’m keeping hold of it because it will be worth even more in a few years.

The value of these bags is factual. Not a matter of what people think. You could confirm this information very easily with a bit of research rather than insisting you know what you clearly don’t.

ive just sold two bags I’ve had since 2009 for over double. Can you specify: double what? Double what you paid in 2009 or double what the same exact bag is selling for new today?

The way some people are talking on this thread is exactly the way Elon-bros talk about crypto.

In any market, but especially those in commodities which have no inherent value, rapid hyperinflation accompanied by mania is indicative of a bubble. It's just basic economics. You're selling these bags at a profit because we're in the middle of said bubble.

My advice would be sell now, or you'll be sitting on some very expensive bits of pretty leather in a few years.

The other thing is that perhaps the secondary market for this sells so high precisely because it is the only way for shoppers wishing to buy this one bag from being forced by the retailer to purchase X amount first. As in, the 'price' of the bag in real terms may be fairly static, only that the first purchaser had to pay 'Set price for the bag plus previous prices for other items' and the second purchaser is only paying '(Higher) set price for the bag'. They're paying to avoid the hassle of the bundling in which Hermes engages, so that even if the cost of all those extraneous items the first purchaser had to buy is less than the extra cost added to the bag itself, some of that cost is the cost of not being forced to acquire superfluous items to one's frustration.

As I posted earlier, my doctor’s wife has been buying , using and then reselling expensive bags at a profit for some years now.

The expensive second hand bag market does remind me a bit of the Tulip Mania that swept the Netherlands in the 17th Century. I knew nothing of this tulip mania until I watched the movie about it a few years ago. The mania only lasted about 4 years though before the market for them crashed. Reselling these expensive bags has gone on for quite a few more years than that.

And also, doesn’t vintage Dior Haute Couture (and the other fashion Houses) sell now for more than it did when it was first designed?

@Precipice Double their current retail price.

There’s no point in dissecting why they are valuable. Value is always about demand. They just are valuable, always have been and that’s that.

The resale market does allow the avoidance of the pre spend but usually those buyers want one bag as a special treat. Those being offered bags directly will very likely have a collection. You can have two Quota bags a year. This would only stop if you were suspected of selling them immediately. You can of course sell a bag you’ve had for a while and don’t use. It’s always been this way so the current outrage is silly. You’ve never been able to walk into Hermes and buy a bag. Never.

You could walk into Chanel & Rolex and buy anything though and thus the reasoning behind them also now being more elusive. They want the prestige & clientele of Hermes. A chanel flap can cost the same as a Kelly but just doesn’t have the same allure and they know this.

The hoop jumping is for new customers. If you have been buying Hermes, Porsches etc for a long time you will still be buying them without barriers now.

They just are valuable, always have been and that’s that.

And it's the gambler's fallacy to believe they always will be.

If you understand that there's no inherent value, that it's based on demand and what people are willing to pay, then you have to acknowledge that, like all investing, this is a form of gambling.

There is no way handbags are magically exempt from market forces. There is a bubble at the moment - how long it lasts is the gamble, if you're participating.

There’s no point in dissecting why they are valuable. Value is always about demand. They just are valuable, always have been and that’s that. This is a strange and quite anti-intellectual stance. There is no inherent value in these bags over other leather bags. Therefore there is a point in trying to get to why these particular bags have acquired such a perceived value. Although I don't think we're really getting into it here.

It’s always been this way so the current outrage is silly. Also peculiar. It's always been this way so nothing can change? Nobody can object to it? Laws change. In particular, competition law is something that's had quite a big expansion in previous decades (although modern competition law started in the end of the 19th century, thinking of US antitrust provisions.) Most changes have been brought about from people objecting to things that had been so for some time.

With Hermes it’s not just a case of how much you buy in my experience. It’s building a relationship up with a sales associate and finding someone who you get on well with in your nearest boutique. Sometimes it can only take one visit. I was put on the wish list after only meeting my favourite sales associate once. I didn’t wait long.
The mystery has definitely added to the allure of them. There are books written just to give hints and tips on buying a Birkin and there was even a story on Sex and the City where Samantha was trying to get the sales associate to sell her one.
I didn’t know about this court case though, I’ll definitely be checking it out!

"The value of these bags is factual."

Well yes and no. The value comes from the artificial market Hermes has created. A bit like diamonds - the material isn't particularly rare, but supply is controlled which gives them a rarity value to those who value having what the majority cannot easily access.
Lots of brands protect their image by selling only to people who they feel won't devalue it (see Burberry as a cautionary tale) but the consumer is buying into an image. However lovely the product is, its value is in consumer perception, not the product itself.
That perception may last or may not. Probably will with Hermes unless they were forced to sell Birkins in TK Maxx
But I still wouldn't want something where I felt the manufacturer was taking the piss out of me and however rich I was, that would remain my consumer perception.
But each to their own. And I'm sure it really is a lovely bag.

That's very unfair though.
Not so good for introverts as well who don't do well with making new relations

There’s not a lot that is fair about the fashion industry @cactidream
I don’t get as worked up by it as I do the counterfeit industry though.

Things have definitely changed with Hermes in the last few years. I have a Birkin that I bought about 7 years ago in the Bond Street store and had no prior purchases with them just literally went in and asked and was offered one. That would don't happen now.

I also declined a wish a couple of years back and haven't been offered one since.

My DH and I have a few patek watches and it is v much a similar process. Definitely being polite to the sales assistants in any of these places helps for sure.

The big issue with these as an investment piece is that you are banking on them remaining rare and desirable- if Hermes gets a new owner who decides to cash in and produce triple the number of Birkins in the currently rate colour you have, to the extent that anyone wanting one can just walk into a store and buy one new - then your investment suddenly stops being worth much.

They could go down the Burberry route and suddenly it’s not a brand stylish people want anymore.

both unlikely, but not a given that their current business model will remain the same. It is perfectly possible that if following this legal case, if they find they can’t use the rarity of Birkins to sell other items anymore, they may decide to keep their sales up by increasing the numbers of Birkins for sale. Anyone holding on to one banking on them staying rare and popular does need to pay close attention to this case.

They never look particularly attractive in themselves (or especially practical)- it all seems a bit emperor's new clothes. Some designer bags genuinely look lovely, but if the Birkins were made by Primark I don't think they'd be a huge seller.

they do these things to create a sense of exclusivity (is that a word?)

then people fall over themselves to waste their money on this crap

its one thing to buy a decent bag, quite another to treat it as some sort of holy grail and spend the equivalent of a small country's GDP on it...

@Opine that’s not true about Chanel. You can walk in and buy a classic Chanel. It’s the limited items that are harder to get. The issue with Chanel is the high prices and low quality

@Nw22 Not any more. Obviously much easier than an Hermes but they don’t hand them out now. I wanted one as a gift recently & my SIL had to get it because she had leverage at Chanel.
A classic flap in most sizes is a hard purchase as are the hot seasonal pieces.
when I used to buy frequently there was still a culture of only frequent customers only. For example they wouldn’t give espadrilles to anyone. I was trying some on that they’d called me about & they didn’t fit. A lady asked if she could try them & they told her they were allocated to a customer. Yes me & I didn’t want them!

I agree re quality. Not only that but their endless ‘seasons’ and price increases. I’ll keep what I have from them but I’m otherwise disinterested.