Are you a Retinol Expert? Please assist me!

[NYStateofMine]

I have been using Satin Naturel Organic 3% Retinol Serum for the past 2 years. The ingredients are lovely and it also contains argon oil and vitamin c so it feels lovely on my skin. Can't say I look any younger but thought I was doing my best. However, I just read an article that said you can't get 3% retinol over the counter in the UK, which made me suspicious. I went online to check over the ingredients of my serum and saw that it says "3% retinol delivery system". Now I'm pretty sure that sounds like a clever bit of waffle, and that's it's not actually 3% retinol after all?!!

Are there any retinol experts who can confirm?

Second question, what is the highest percentage retinol I can buy over the counter and what serums do you recommend? There are a great many vlogs and Top 10 lists online but they rarely mention the actual % strength of retinol / Vit A.

I started on the lowest dose with skin and me despite having used OTC stuff before
My skin has changed massively, and I peeled even from that!

@Apileofballyhoo can you recommended an SPF to use?

I've been using biore water essence but I'm so worried about getting a fake I think I'd rather try something else
Especially if I start with the retinols etc

oohmama I've never used the Biore but I also worry about fakes. If you're happy with it, how about doing a post asking about where people buy it? I think that's probably the best thing to do.

I'm using Heliocare Mineral SPF 50 at the moment, the one with no fragrance. My eyes sting easily but that's fine. It's light with a slight tint but actually that's paler than my skin (I'm white and fair) so I look a bit pale after I've put it on. That disappears though after a while.

I have sensitive skin and eyes that sting so I feel like I'm stuck with expensive sunscreen. The Inkey List mineral SPF doesn't sting my skin, but it's only 30 and it says not to use it near eyes. It's thick and quite hard to spread but it disappears into my skin nicely/the tint is a good colour for me. Might be a bit drying, I'm not really sure.

I used to use la Roche Posay comfort - thick and sticky and shiny if you use the right amount, but it didn't sting my eyes until taking it off at night. It started to sting my face though. La Roche Posay shaka fluid is light and liquid, doesn't sting my eyes, stings any sensitive bits of my face.

I used to use Clinique City Block religiously in my non wrinkly 20s but I think at the time it only went up to SPF25 and it goes to 40 now. I don't know if you could apply the full amount though, it used to slide around my face if I used too much. Clinique do a mineral one but the bottle is only 30ml so at 2.5 ml a day that's very expensive as you'd only get 12 days if I've done my maths right.

Frezyderm velvet gets recommended on the fantastic skincare threads here, and I like the sound of that but it seemed expensive to get in Ireland last time I looked (got my Heliocare in a black Friday deal).

The fantastic skincare threads have a factsheet about sunscreen if you wanted to look at ingredients. Honestly I feel like sunscreen is the hardest thing to get but maybe that's because of my skin and eyes.

Basically all the good mineral ones are expensive and I have trouble getting chemical ones that don't sting my eyes, so I'm pretty useless to you. I am thinking of trying the Biore myself. It is a kind of daily indoors sunscreen so not designed for holidays or lots of outdoor activity, bear that in mind. I'm sure the same applies to many of them.

There was a bit of chat on the fantastic skincare threads before Christmas about the purita SPF 50 that turned out to be SPF 19 in tests, and an interesting chart where a range of sunscreens were tested and came out a lot less protective than what they said on the bottle. An LRP gel was one of them. which is not to say the other LRPs would be the same.

Oh I forgot Avène do two mineral ones, tinted and untinted. I've been meaning to try both. A bit cheaper than Heliocare, so I was thinking Heliocare around my eyes and Avene for the rest if I find it stings. Avene do plenty of chemical sunscreen too.

@Apileofballyhoo
Ooh thanks for the advice!

Well I bought a biore from amazon but panicked it was a fake so I did find a uk website and got it from there
So I'm pretty sure it's legit

I didn't realise you had to wear SPF indoors??

I tried the avene one, but I didn't like it at all! Just felt greasy and more like a suncream I put on my kids in the summer etc!

Think I will stick with biore until I can do some research and try some other ones!

Was it the mineral Avene, oohmama? I don't think I could cope with that either. I'm glad you got your Biore. Yes to indoors, and winter. UVA light gets through windows and is just as strong in winter, and that's the one that causes ageing. And at least 2.5 ml for face and neck but I've seen 2.5ml just for face, and in Australia they recommend a whole teaspoon, I think but maybe that's for neck as well as face. That's why I'm always on the hunt for affordable ones that don't sting me!

@Apileofballyhoo it is the avene cleanance 50+ one!
I had no idea I should be wearing it indoors
From today I will start wearing it! Might just use the avene one as it was expensive!
I wear a lot of makeup and I found it wasn't a good base but if I'm just at home then it doesn't matter!

The biore would run out really quickly if I used it every day so next time I will buy the larger size I think!
Although now I'm wondering if it's enough protection! I do wear a sunhat when it's summer every time I'm in the sun but obviously not in winter 😂

Do you put spf on before or after moisturizer?

I didn't realise you have to wear spf indoors, in winter, it's not like you sit under a window all day, I do use cerave moisturiser the one with spf in it, do you think that's enough for winter, I do use other spf in summer,

@sometimesonly I put it on after a moisturiser, it's the last thing you put on before you put on make up.

You definitely should wear it if you're using retinol or exfoliating acids, and if you're concerned about preventing ageing.

One in a moisturiser isn't really enough because it's usually just the UVB rating that's given and you've no idea whether it's protecting against UVA, which is the ageing and skin cancer ray. The other thing is that you're probably not using enough to get the protection. Lab tests are done at a certain amount per cm of skin. As far as I can see you should use 2.5ml for face and neck though I've seen 2.5ml for face alone and also 5ml (one teaspoon for face). At the very least a 50ml bottle should only last you 20 days, and that's not counting top up if you're out in the sun. I don't think anyone uses that much moisturiser. If you don't use enough you're protection goes right down from what it says on the bottle to maybe a half or a third (obviously depends on how much you use) of the uvb protection, which could leave you with hardly any UVA protection at all, as uva protection is usually just a percentage of UVB protection.

I use SPF 50 and feel if I am not using quite enough I'm still getting protection at 25-30. I did measure 2.5 ml into a measuring spoon and it's an astonishing amount. That works well if your sunscreen has a pump because you can count the number of pumps but most don't so I'm mostly guessing. There's a method where you apply lines of sunscreen to two fingers, apply, wait for it to dry and go again. I can't get my head around this with the runny type.

I actually think it's ridiculous that such a basic product is so expensive and comes with such a lack of instruction. "Apply generously" and "reapply frequently" are meaningless. I even saw on a website last year (colorscience) that most customers found a bottle lasts for 2-3 months or similar. So they were actually advertising the fact that people don't use enough as a selling point.

Paula's choice with their 'science based approach' avoid the question too, but mention things like applying generously and 'layering' sunscreen i.e. wearing one in a serum, moisturiser, primer and foundation. Even with that I'm not sure you'd get enough, and if you don't wear the last 2... made me totally disrespect them as a company.

I think cosmetic companies would find it hard to sell them if they started the actual amount. Though if you look at the mainly French pharmacy brands the sunscreens are more reasonably priced and they are actually sunscreens not moisturiser with sunscreen in it. Lots of people buy Asian sunscreens because they're more suitable for wearing the actual proper amount on your face.

It's a balance between cost and what you can actually bear wearing on your face too. Cost because it's a monthly/yearly cost you have to be happy with and it does genuinely cost companies more to make ones that won't sting eyes, block pores and aren't a white, sticky, greasy mess.

@oohmama, I'll still give the avene mineral a go so. I know the white gloopy stuff is not what we want on our faces! Definitely get a bigger bottle next time, the better value the better in my opinion. Biore should be fine in summer unless you're actually outside in the sun for a couple of hours or sweating. Popping to the shops with a hat on it should be fine. Hour long walk in the sunshine or an afternoon gardening I'd probably stick on something more and put up with it being white and sticky.

I have garner ambra solaire sensitive advance face sp50+, which I have on today, as i have been out for a walk, I also have cerave hydrating tinted sunscreen spf 30, Australian gold botanical tinted spf 50, under these i sometimes wear lancaster highliting primer spf 30.

It's a bloody mind field and something no one really talks about?
None of my friends wear daily spf,
And I'm ashamed to say I never wore any until last year (28)
So I know a lot of damage is done but I'm hoping I can prevent any further damage!

I am also planning on subscribing to skin+me so will absolutely have to be really careful with the spf!

Got the avene on today and it feels horrible! Think I'd rather shut all the curtains 😭😭

And I'm ashamed to say I never wore any until last year (28)
Well that's 20 years before me! Thanks for the advice. I always thought it should go on last but I also read in a magazine to put it on before moisturizer!

Yes oohmama completely agree with you. I had to really search and read and read and search to come to my 2.5ml conclusion and I'm not even really sure that's appropriate for my neck too or should I use that alone for my face. The products themselves don't really seem to be formulated to use that much on your face even including your neck - the one I measured was la Roche posay for sensitive skin (used to be called comfort and now I think it's called hydrating) and putting that amount on was ludicrous. Then the price of the more suitable for putting on your face ones is equally ludicrous. Then other ones say straight out not to use near your eyes and there's also the environmental aspect of plastic packaging and marine life and so on.

@sometimesonly I sure i read somewhere you put it on last, will now go to youtube and do some research.

Just read a article in allure mag online and it said over moisturiser, it did say some dermatologists said under, it also said unless really dry skin you can skip the moisturiser altogether, so there it is, if they can't agree
What do we do.

I think I've read that same article or similar, lindy. I think the argument is that chemical sunscreen has to bind with your skin so that's why some derms recommend putting it on bare skin. If it's a moisturising formula you might not need moisturiser. I do need moisturiser so that's out of the question for me. I can't see it being a huge problem though if your moisturiser is kind of light and has absorbed. But I'm not a dermatologist! I use a physical/mineral sunscreen and I'd imagine that's totally fine to go over moisturiser as it sits on top anyway.