Retinoid and broken capillaries

[zippyswife]

I’ve just acted using the Ordinary Granactive Retinoid 2% in Squalane- after 2 uses (missing a day in between) I have noticed broken blood vessels on my cheeks. I’m sure they weren’t there/not as noticeable beforehand. Could the Retinoid have caused this? I have sensitive rosacea prone skin and the sales assistant recommended this and advises use every evening? I assume I should stop
Usage? Or should I just use on my forehead?

Retinoids can temporarily thin skin at first, so potentially could reveal something that wasn't visible previously but with just two uses it's probably unlikely and more likely a sever reaction to irritation.

Rosacea prone skin needs to be really cautious with retinoids, and other actives. Nightly use as suggested by the assistant seems reckless to me, especially if not built up. Dermatologists don't really have a single opinion on retinoid use with Rosacea but most advise against it, or only a very mild form of it with soothing adjuvant ingredients (read, rightly, expensive). Though, some find it useful in the treatment of Rosacea but then you are under constant supervision of a dermatologist.

I personally would stop use all together and ask for a refund, they have a broader return policy than most.

@botemp thanks a million for your explanation and advice. I’ll stop now. I had deliberated over starting this for a couple of years and held off. Then a trip to the ordinary and advice that this was zero-irritation made me feel comfortable about trying it. Gutted now as I assume the broken capillaries are here to stay?

Can I get your advice on these products? I was recommended these at the same time (40year old fair rosacea prone dry skin would like something to brighten hydrate and preferably anti-age)? Do you think these would be too harsh for me also?

Difficult to say if they'll stay or go. Just be diligent with SPF 50 for the foreseeable future and try to reduce as much friction and avoid rigourous exercise, spicy foods, alcohol, saunas, steam rooms, etc.

The amino peptides and B5 are new to me so I'm unfamiliar with the INCI (TO failed to impress me and the owner's social media behaviour nailed the final nail on the coffin) but in theory that should be good for hydration and I wouldn't consider an active.

WRT to the Vitamin C it's a derivative so less sensitising but in saying that I don't think it warrants a stand alone product. It only really works in conjunction with other antioxidants and the research for brightening and evening out skin tone isn't really there as it is for other Vitamin C forms. It also depends what you mean by brightening, since you have Rosacea it's usually more beneficial to reduce redness and minimise irritation for an even tone, vitamin C (in L-AA form) can be quite brightening but if you're looking rosy or red it's hardly noticed. Niacinamide and licorice root are much more of interest in that sense, wouldn't buy those from TO though.

Azelaic Acid is also worth looking at, it's really helpful for Rosacea (either by prescription through the Boots or Superdrug acne clinic or GOW at Victoria Health).

This is great information bo. Thank you. I’ll return the Retinoid and vit c.

I might be using the wrong term when I say “brightening” I think I mean glowing or possibly hydrated/healthy- basically not dead/dull/dry!

I might try the amino acid in this case? Do you think I should wait a period before I do this. I was originally looking for the hylauric acid but it was out of stock so I ended up with this instead?

Because of my pale freckles skin I have darkened freckles that I would like to reduce the appearance of. Do you have any ideas for that?.... I promise I’ll leave you alone in a minute

Ok, I've just looked up the amino acid and B5 on the Deciem website and under instructions it says that a tingling sensation can be expected after application and that does alter my opinion that it sounds fairly innocuous. From a rather safe than sorry perspective I'd be inclined to return that too.

WRT the capillaries, Avene does a product that can be used topically on redness and capillaries that could help them to go down, it's Antirougeurs Fort.

If glowing = no longer dull, definitely look into Azelaic Acid, it's a brightener and tackles skin tone and it's as close to a retinoid in function for rosacea prone skin without the sensitivity. I would wait until trying it until you've got the capillaries down (ie. the retinoid sensitivity has subsisted) but it can also help (limited) with the appearance of capillaries.

Sorry missed the second post, Azelaic Acid again, it's the default treatment for pigmentation, melasma, etc. and inhibiting it (along with sunscreen obviously).

Thank you for your time @botemp. Really appreciate it. Avene is my go to for cleanser and moisturiser. I’ll order that now.

Re the azeliac acid- is there one you would recommend? Does it hydrate or should I use something in addition for that?

Just seen your second post re azelaic acid- sounds like I need some of that!!

Good thread, sorry to hear about your problems op, similar happened to me when I used something from Neals Yard.

Botemp, can I ask why you wouldn’t buy niacinamide from The Ordinary? I was just about to get some? Is there another brand you recommend?

hmm, the niacinamide from the Ordinary is formulated for acne use. IME the formulation is inconsistent as well (something they openly admit to, to keep the cost down they swap and change formulation/ingredients). It's also 10%, all research around Niacinamide uses a 5% concentration, where it is well tolerated by most whilst 10% can be quite sensitising. On the fantastic skincare thread a lot of us also experienced the ordinary products (the retinoids and the niacinamide especially) going off well before they were supposed to.

Garden of Wisdom at Victoria Health has a 5% niacinamide serum but much like ascorbyl glucoside I don't really see the need for a standalone product, it's easy enough to get it elsewhere, it's in both my cleanser and moisturiser.

zippy, you can get Azelaic Acid from Garden of Wisdom as well, it's well liked and comparable to TO in pricing. Otherwise you can get it through the Boots or Superdrug online clinics, you fill in a form for the requested drug, apparently it's quite easy, or ask your GP for a prescription. Probably easiest to try the GOW first, it's a slightly lower concentration but will be good to test the waters with.

I would probably get something extra for hydration if you're struggling with dehydration. I like the Vichy Mineral 89.

@botemp
Are these the products?
www.boots.com/vichy-mineral-89-50ml-10237663

www.victoriahealth.com/product/Azelaic-Acid-10-Serum/12844

I’ll return my TO products and get these instead!

I’ve ventured onto the fantastic skin threads before but as I’m such a novice I feel pretty lost and come off- so I really appreciate your help. Do you have sensitive/rosacea prone skin yourself or are you just extremely knowledgeable?

@hmm sorry to hear that- did they reduce at all?

Thank you botemp. I’ll hold off on The niacinamide for now. Just when you think you’re onto something! This skin care business is so confusing.

@hmm that’s how I feel!

I don't have active rosacea, I do suspect I'm at risk of it (runs on my father's side of the family), so probably sit in the extremely mild spectrum of it and if I were to treat my skin badly and indulged in other rosacea triggers I'd suspect it would show up, it did nearly when using glycolic acid, thankfully it's never progressed and I'm hoping it stays that way.

Yes, those are the two products, sorry didn't realise the Vichy came in that pricy in the UK.

Thanks again bo- I don’t mind spending that if it works well for my skin.

Hi zippy, yes eventually. At first I thought it was a coincidence so I used the product a few more times (think it was a face mask, can’t remever but it had a really strong smell!) then someone said stop using it. I was so disappointed as my cheeks were the only part of my face that were flawless!!! I think if I’d used a good suncream it would have reduced a lot quicker but I didn’t and (you don’t want to hear this I’m sure) I spent the next few years with quite rosy cheeks. I think what helped it was having 3 mandelic peels done (I had wanted them for something else but the lady doing it assumed i wanted the peels for the redness on my cheeks) I have quite sensitive skin which is why I went for mandelic peels rather than lactic. All I can say is I had those and I have been using salicylic acid face wash (2% with I think 1% coconut oil added) though that’s ran out now. I used it once a day- the only face wash I have ever found to not make my skin feel uncomfortable. Plus a glycolic gel (is very watery) a couple of times a week. I don’t know if that all helped it to go or it just went naturally. That whole process from having the peels (3 over the course of about 2 months) plus using the face wash etc has been about 1.5 years. But I’m using it for old scarring, the redness in my cheeks didn’t actually bother me that much. Good luck!

@hmm glad things have improved for you. To be honest I was hoping that it was a coincidence with my Retinoid use and considered continuing but I just don’t want to take the risk of it getting worse so I think I’m safer to lay off it.

I haven’t heard of those peels. I’ll look into it. Sounds interesting. Glad you’re got a handle on your skin now.

I use la Roche spf50 daily. I wish I’d started that 20 years earlier!

Hi I have similar skin and stopped retinoids too.
It is basically a very strong peel so it exposes the skin underneath. It is also super sensitive to UV as a result.
I’d drop it and use a little rosehip oil which will be ultra mild.
Too many retinoids and acids can also have the reverse effect - I personally think you can overuse them and they can age you if you don’t use a high factor stable zinc suncream.

@bio yes I agree. Sadly I had a really itch I had to scratch with the Retinoid- as soon as the sales assistant said it didn’t irritate I couldn’t wait to try it. The sensible side of me has been telling me to stick to my simple and boring avene cleanser almond oil And high spf routine. I just desperately wanted to visibly improve my skin rather than maintain it.