Dressing like a woman

[Cecily75]

So I'm interested to know how you style mavens think women should dress, what is "feminine" style and how do you reconcile yourself and your body to the social stereotypes of what a woman should look like.

Still with me? I'm raising teen daughters and it boils my blood that they and their friends (female and male) are bombarded with the mainstream stereotype of what girls and boys should look like (viz Kardashians, Love Island, that AIBU thread about how can you achieve this Instagrammer's body).

I'm in my 40s and have been blessed with large and beautiful now saggy norks. They started off as a curse (unwanted male attention for much of my life, especially as a young and naive teen) and have become useful as part of my child rearing. Now I await fearfully for the possibility of breast cancer (family history).

I have tried various ways of dressing up to accentuate or dressing down to hide my boobs throughout my life. I don't think there's only one way to dress that makes me any more or less of a woman.

I love the freedom of choice that @botemp and @Floisme often encourage, to try to dress well , not dress according to our age or some arbitrary rule (I hope you two don't mind me namechecking you, you're my inspiration!)

Whether my hair is long or super short (I've had my hair at both extremes of length), whether I'm hiding or enhancing my cleavage, I'm still a woman - just what is it that makes me dress like a woman? It must be different for each woman - we all live with and against stereotypes.

I love an "androgynous" trousers and shirt look, but rarely manage to pull it off successfully. But I'm also not comfortable in tight body-con dresses.

Occasionally I wear a full face of make-up, but that doesn't make me feel more feminine than the days when I can't be arsed forego foundation etc.

I'm so grateful to the people who fought for the hard-won freedoms we have today, so that women feel able to wear whatever they want in this society. I'm so thankful to the people who try to encourage confidence in ourselves, to defy conventions and stereotypes.

I love that I have women friends who prefer and look great in jeans & t-shirts, who never wear dresses; women friends who would never leave the house without a full face of make-up but still look beautiful with or without the make-up; women friends who have undergone massive physical changes due to illness but still celebrate their bodies and challenge what "womanhood" should like.

Thanks for letting me rant

What a lovely surprise to come home to. Thank you botemp is far more knowledgeable than me. Interesting topic too - and I'm not just saying that because I've had a mention Some random thoughts to kick off.

just what is it that makes me dress like a woman?
I think the main thing I enjoy is the creativity. I've said this on other threads but I'd love to have more artistic talent and I just don't. But clothes give me an outlet. It sometimes makes me cross that it's denigrated as a 'womens' interest' and I know for a fact that some people - male and female - don't take me seriously because I like clothes. On the other hand, if more men were interested they'd probably be on here, telling us we're doing it all wrong

I don't have a daughter so I'm spared a lot of that angst. But my son was quite into clothes as a child and I sometimes wonder if he wa socialised out of it, which would be sad.

how do you reconcile yourself and your body to the social stereotypes of what a woman should look like.
Not easily. I'm vain and sometimes it's a struggle. But I really hate the way womens' looks and clothing are policed - often by other women. And as you probably know, I have a bee in my bonnet about the pressures women face when they get older. I have yet to meet a single man who's worried that the lines on his forehead make him look cross.

ehm, I think you're both being far too generous. Thank you, regardless.

Definitely food for thought. Lots to tackle all at once. Terminology can get on my nerves, so I'll start there. This notion of 'like a woman' bothers me. It's just something you are, it's the baseline, not the destination. You're born naked, the clothes aren't the definers of our sex. It also makes womanhood this measurable and competitive thing, which frankly is just a waste of our energy imho.

There was a book title a few years back, 'A Girl Is a Half-formed Thing', and that resonated with me for whatever reason (the title, I never read the book ). I don't feel 'fully formed', no matter the age attached to me, the increase in responsibility, etc. I consider it a good thing. If I'm done, I'm probably at the end or there's nothing left to excite me. I'm perfectly happy being a constant work in progress, not everything has to be 'just so' all at once.

I think for me the crucial thing was letting go of perfection. It encourages participating in this impersonation of womanhood, as defined by anyone with a vested interest, be that advertisers, influencers, the male gaze, etc.

Personal style is both self-indulgent and intensely self-aware, but most of all it's honest. That uncompromising quality makes it intimidating and alluring all at once. It's not making something of yourself that you're not, never were, and never will be but it is about who you might become and an extension of what you are now.

I do feel there is great potential for women to reclaim honesty as a power. Socialisation constantly encourages us to lie and believe half-truths for the sake of others (and to make us buy shit we never wanted), especially when we're victimised as it's a more palatable version of reality for everyone else.

So, yeah, basically, be honest.

Interesting post. I don’t dress like a woman, I am a woman. I love clothes, and spend far too much money on them/time thinking about what to wear, buy etc, but it never crosses my mind that I want to look “feminine”. I think I may link feminine and “girlie” in my head, because it conjures up images of flouncy florals for some reason. Today I wore a long sleeved midi-dress with a high neck, bare legs, and gold Nikes, with a denim jacket - probably no-one’s idea of “feminine”, but I don’t think anyone would have thought I was not dressed like a woman. I also love makeup, and am never seen without red lipstick. It’s just part of my overall look, a kind of trademark.

I’m a lecturer and teach a lot of young women. It may just be me, but I feel like there are real polar opposites - it’s either jeans/hoodie/no makeup, or full blown false lashes and contouring, and not much middle ground. It also strikes me that there aren’t the same style tribes as there were when I was a student (late 90s) which I suppose were largely driven by the music scenes back in my day - goths, indie girls, clubbers etc. I don’t know why any of this is, I just find it quite interesting.

TL:DR - women should dress how they want to.

Interesting thread!
I’m in my 40s. I’m not sure ‘feminine’ is the goal but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t want to look pretty or attractive. Maybe sexy even. And not just to men. Other women can be our harshest critics. At times I want their approval. Even though I tell myself I don’t need it.
I like a high neck blouse, a wide leg jean, a block heel sandal, mid length dress and a skinny fit cashmere. I like slightly understated. A little undone.
I have a teen daughter who is currently obsessed with Love Island (where being a conventional beauty and a size 8 is the standard) though herself wears skinny jeans, converse and t-shirts on repeat. It’s a running joke she only brushes her hair once a week. I want her to retain this carefree attitude to her appearance.

Agree I'm not really sure what dressing like a woman is. At the moment my style is pretty androgynous but before that I was quite into bodycon for a while and before that I had a phase of living in tea dresses. As far as I'm aware (because who knows what goes on in my subconscious) I wasn't trying to be more feminine. I just liked the look and I was pretty much the same personality then as now.

I've been told a couple of times that "you are the most feminine woman I know" I wear mostly skinnies, DMs and t shirts, hair long and usually either a mad scruffy mop or tied up. I have boys, I climb trees, build camps, love classic cars, and listen to punk music, I renovate, I restore furniture, I love power tools and hoik furniture about, mostly im told "you think like a man" it puzzles me. I am what I am, I don't give any thought to making myself feminine. Dp says it's because I'm fairly short, small frame, small size but still curvey and have a very feminine looking face. These are not things about myself I can change.

But I do see young woman performing femininity in how they choose to present. False lashes, lots of make up, lip plumpers, padded bras, waist shapers, treatments that often distort and now these horrendous looking eyebrows. The look often makes me take a double look, trying to work out if I'm looking at a man in drag or a woman.

So whilst I think it's possible to perform femininity, I don't think it's possible to fake it, or if it is, it isn't achieved by taking every feminine attribute and over doing it.

This is a good thread. I dress like a woman, in that I wear woman clothes because they fit my body shape better than man clothes would. Today I am in rolled up chinos and a vest, tomorrow I might wear a tea dress, if I don't have to cycle anywhere.
What strikes me about this question, and oddly I just read a post on Let Clothes be Clothes about the sizing difference in girls and boys clothes so it is timely in my head, is how it varies from where you are on how women are expected to dress. I am a Brit living in Germany and the 'style of femininity' is different here, for young women it is much more androgynous, for women my age it is fairly relaxed, dresses, cropped leggings, etc. Makeup is fairly minimal even among the teens. It always strikes me when I go back to the UK how different the women and men look.
I think society benefits from women having more preoccupation in how they look, so we can be labelled airheads, spend more disposable income etc, but actually I also think having an eye for style is a good thing (that is a fairly recent 180 turn in thinking for me). I like dressing to suit my shape, and I like dressing to suit my personality that day. I find it creative and fun and like to see my older daughter enjoy dressing to suit her mood too.

Thank you all for such thoughtful responses!

It's as though there's a caricature of dressing like a "woman" that some people try to perpetuate

I'm as guilty as the next person of slapping on some make-up or a push-up bra as I feel the urge, but at times it's almost like dressing up as someone else's idea of a woman.

I love the idea of given up on perfection (whatever that may be) and being a work in progress. Obviously styles and my own preferences have changed over the years (how I loved grunge! My formative teen years.) And I think my tastes have broadened as I've aged and relaxed into being myself, I'm more confident to try new things even though I wear a very limited colour palette.

YY women do judge each other. I guess how we dress ourselves is one expression of our personality, and generally we can be very good at reading or interpreting that. These days my idea of being well dressed no longer includes any explicit moron of whether I look sexy or not.

I saw Grayson Perry on TV about the RA Summer Exhibition, talking about his dresses. He said he wanted people not to look at him but at his dresses, but then he talked about the male gaze and attention to which women are subject and he "wanted some of that action". I think I understood what he was saying, but I rarely feel as though the male gaze, turned on me, has ever been about my outfit (unless DH is expressly pressed to give his opinion...) When I was younger and not invisible, it always felt as though men looking at me, they were looking at and assessing my physical features rather than what I was wearing. So for me, I'm not sure Grayson has got that right about the male gaze.

OMG! yes to being labelled an airhead just because I give a shit about how I present myself!

I do have a brain despite having an extensive wardrobe! That particular judgement has been applied to me many times over the years, I've sometimes wondered if I need to show off my degree certificates along with my nice pair of shoes

No I'm not certain Grayson has that right. I don't think men do appraise pattern, colour, fabric, style.......I think it's more likely they are making an assessment of physical attributes, and social cues such as "mini skirt....on the pull, low cut top......I'm entitled to stare" unfortunately men give this little critical consideration, we are aware of the male gaze and claim to wear what makes us happy, claim that we don't invite the male gaze, but we know it's a fact that men assess our suitability, desirability and willingness to engage in sexual activity with them. I often wear mini skirts with DMs, I probably convey "you can look, you can think what you like but you can't touch" if I wanted male attention to exceed just looking I'd know what to wear.

I can't fully accept the mantra that women can wear what they like and that men are predators. Men are predatory, but like all predators they carefully asses their prey. Women can wear what they like, and most definitely should, however as an individual I too carefully assess the message I convey to men by having weighed up how I might be perceived. It's very simple really.

And I don't take at face value any statement that says " what's that creep staring at, I can wear my tits half out, for me, he has no right to think I'm trying to attract male attention" women are socially conditioned to seek male validation and approval. We seek the protection of our oppressor because we live in a society shaped by class hierarchy and unequal balances of power. Patriarchal society leads to this split between conscious and unconscious motivation. We identify with other women, we have a shared experience and we are ashamed almost to admit that we are pitted against our kind in order to secure a more advantageous place in the pecking order. I mean, if sex and economics were never to have existed in the first place women themselves would not find themselves seeking the approval of other women with their choice in clothing!! And it's a tightrope.

I have a pretty dress with lilac flowers, knee length, fitted and quite smart. Every woman I know has commented "how lovely" whilst my sons, my step son and DP " gosh you look like a hydrangea, it's horrid" so I gather from this information that my pretty dress is something I wear on a day out with my woman friends. Crazy really. I'll probably not wear it all because I'm now very aware that it signifies my desperate need for female approval. Same as having thrown away obviously "sexy clothes" because I don't want to look desperate for male approval. But I'm not silly, I am more than happy to play up to being feminine or attractive when I want male approval to further myself at work, in the supermarket, at the garage....... If there is some advantage then I will.

Mini for your super, coherent and intelligent post I think I love you

Grayson is being quite heterosexual about it, isn't he? Straight men can and do experience the male gaze from other men, yet they have no interest in it under those circumstances.

I've always wondered what the female gaze is applied to women. As in what lesbians find appealing as mainstream media doesn't really explore it and lesbians themselves lack the entitlement privilege that men have to express it as overtly. Perhaps it's identical to the male gaze, yet I doubt it. It's interesting to see that gay men have a variety of subcultures (twinks, bears, etc) based on pronounced physical types, and a very specific type of grooming and dressing that goes with it.

I think 'femininity' is another term purposefully made woolly when it's quite straightforward, like mini mentioned in her first post there are feminine things about me which can't be circumvented. Just like I am not 'like a woman', I just am one and I'm a feminine looking one as determined by my biology and there's quite a variety of it. Things that imitate it aren't the same, just similar or familiar. I struggle with 'performing feminity', it always feels like an accusation of women against other women. It's a bit like drag in a way and I quite like drag as it challenges stereotypes through exaggeration and parody removing it so far from the original meaning and liberating it in a sense. However, neither terms seem to cover it and I do feel there should be room to explore beyond a very rigid definition where feminine is inherent to your sex and only your sex, and 'feminine' as an expression, be it related to cultural and/or sexuality expectations, but separated from sex.

What an interesting question.

I don't think anyone - male or female - should dress in a certain way, unless it's for a formal occasion (so formal office, ceremony, court, etc. where social norms are expected to be upheld and adhered to in order to make those present feel comfortable - I know - that's a whole other thread).

The reason I think we should stick to 'rules' in the above situation is that if we don't then it detracts from proceedings.

Anyway, I think feminine can mean whatever you want it to mean. Look at Madonna. She's been both feminine (remember her Guy Ritchie, country lady period) and masculine in her dress and presentation and I think both worked equally well.

I'm a woman and I do conform to the feminine stereotype as I think it's flattering and makes me look good and if I look good then I get treated in a preferential manner (smiles, attention, doors held open, served first, preferential interview treatment, choice of partners, attracting friends and colleagues etc..)

I've been on both sides - both dressing in an overtly feminine way (bodycon Karen Millen dress, heels, long hair etc..) and in a masculine way (biker boots, biker jacket, old jeans, no makeup, short hair) and I have to say that life was and is more pleasant if I conform and dress in a feminine way. When I dressed in a masculine way, I'd be treated as one of the lads with no consideration given to my suitability as a romantic partner, ignored in shops, buses whizzing by even when I had my hand out etc., but when I dress in a conventionally feminine way, doors open and people smile and want to speak to me, help me, get to know me.

Personally, I like the androgynous look. I think it's freeing. I like the idea of a uniform, so trousers and top, flat shoes. That's it. Like men.

I'm 5' 6 1/2" with broad shoulders and bit feet/hands so it would suit me well. At 50 years old though I know I'd disappear completely if I dressed like this so fear keeps me at the MAC counter and hairdressers!

Hmm I think Grayson Perry is being either naive or disingenuous there (unless I have misunderstood him). I would say I dress better now than when I was young and yet the male gaze slides straight past me these days so I think I can state with confidence that men are not, on the whole appraising your outfit.

"men are not, on the whole appraising your outfit."

Yes, I feel that's true.

I remember a thread on MN a few years ago where a woman in her 40s was talking about feeling sadness as she aged and her teenage daughter blossomed - I didn't feel she was being vain or unkind about her own child. It was more of an observation on how women are judged and made to feel about their looks as they age, how we become invisible to both men and other women as we go through the decades.

For me, invisibility started with pregnancy. But I didn't really notice it (too busy with babies) until my kids and I were older. I don't miss the male gaze and attention per se, I miss being considered a possibly attractive (or sexual) person because I no longer look 22.

My own measure of "looking good" has become more self-defined and self-determined, as I age - partly because I care less about others' opinions, partly because I'm no longer looked at. Not such a bad thing overall!