Mid range designer frump.

[petitchoupette]

I have been reading the frump thread from last month - am both fascinated and appalled in equal measure, as is probably the norm

But then i got to thinking about a brand who I quite like, sometimes, at least for leather goods, even if many of their clothes are a bit swampy....not as bad as Toast, but, you know.

The brand is A.P.C France.
Here is a link to the robe/dress section:

www.apc.fr/wwuk/women/ready-to-wear/dresses_m117.html

I guess I love them, and have been an A.P.C kind of girl for over a decade now, am in my early 40's and still find much of their stuff quite relevant to me.

But a lot of what was described as frumpy rang a bell, as many of the dresses are sack-like, and a lot of their skirts and blouses are very 'prison uniform' or slightly military, or even benzo'd housewife in the 50's leaning.

I like this, and care not about la frumpage, but since A.P.C seem to get a lot of cool points in fashion blog circles, i am interested in your opinion on their stuff.

What makes one sack-like dress frumpy and the other chic?

Ok, I will elongate the question a bit!
Do you think any mid range or high end high street clothes are actually quite ugly, 'frumpy' or really unflattering?

For instance, who exactly is walking around in Toast skirts? Is it even possible if you're below 5"9?

I guess you could like APC or Toast because they demand little of the body, and don't require you to show off too much shape?

It's an interesting question! I think it's a lot to do with being drawn to what you know suits your body. I find anything form fitting quite hard to wear. I bloat a lot and tiny fluctuations in weight have significant impact on my tummy. So things that are more fluid suit me way better and because I'm reasonably tall and leggy I think make me look a lot more svelte than something which is clinging to a bloated belly!

I love some of the dresses you linked to and would definitely wear them - bit spendy though.

This is so interesting - I live in fear of frumpness and amongst my friends tend to see it creeping in in the form of Joules sweatshirts and jeans worn with ballet pumps in a not-stylish way. Washed out Next t-shirts aren't great either.

The difference between Frump and Chic is definitely cut, but also ironing and accessories. I love APC and Toast and it's definitely possible to be a frump in those but they aren't Frump HQ. Too much jersey and cheap 'classics' (bad black trousers etc) are much more damning. As are comfortable shoes that are dated but get worn because they are, well, comfortable.

Are you going to turn your back on APC?!

I'm another APC girl. I was obsessed with them for a long time and spent a small fortune with them. I've cooled off a little but I still buy items from them from time to time and I have a nice 'back catalogue' of APC clothes from past seasons that have stood the test of time. I agree with you that they have the potential to be frumpy - my APC blouses, in particular, are quite boxy. The quality of the materials is excellent, far better than the sort of thing you would get in Joules, but you have to be careful with styling. If I wear a shapeless APC dress, I make sure it's short to avoid frumpiness, for example.

APC is more about utilitarian/minamalistic dressing, personally I like that kind of style. Their quality is great and I've had items which are over 15 years old and I still wear them on a regular basis. I think it's one of those labels you either "get" or you don't. It's definitely more on trend than Toast.

Also what is frumpy? I love my Acne Pistol boots and have had them for years but many people on here refer to them as "Mum Boots". I couldn't care less.

I like APC ,and have some lovely things from them, their style suits me, ditto vanessa Bruno,chloe and Marni, both steer clear from body fitting styles,and I like that, I like clothes with fluidity and movement,

I'm not very tall,5"5 and a size 8-6, but I could never imagine myself wearing body con dresses , it looks wrong on me, trousers and jeans I can , but dresses and skirts, never .
it really depends on your body type and style, these sack like dresses can really look nice on a certain body type with certain look, hair, minimal to no makeup , sense of dress and all that. The overall look is not imposed or try hard but sort of natural, like this is how you imagine them to dress all the time,even though the might live in sweats and band tees during weekends likewise can be said to people who suit body fitting clothes, its all about personal style and taste,

I used to wear a lot of APC in the 90s. Utility chic is fine when you're in your 20s but I'm 44 now. I slightly rediscovered it when we moved to Paris, along with Agnes B which was another 20s fav until they closed their Fulham Rd shop.

I still like APC coats and jumpers, but I much prefer Agnes B.

I think people who talk about frumpy have a quite narrow understanding of personal style. Is Iris Apfel frumpy? Is Marni frumpy? Miuccia Prada hit the jackpot and became fabulously wealthy by making polyester runway ready - everyony wanted to dress like a librarian for many years and the colors were intentionally sludgy and ugly. Have you noticed that trendsetters tend to discover items that look dated to the rest of us and make them cool again? A couple of years ago I saw fashion people in nude polyester plissé skirts that were straight from my mothers 1982 work wardrobe and the least cool thing ever. Not long after we rediscovered midi...

APC does great quality basics, nothing wrong with them, I have a chambray shirt from them that has just that little bit of extra that makes it worth a dozen Zara / H&M tops. The cut goes an extra mile and I always feel fantastic in it.

Continental style is definitely also very different. What looks cool in London can look loud and off somewhere else. Each city has it's own vibe too - I wear totally different clothes in Rome than Berlin or New York (New York black looks faded in warm sunshine; Roman clothes look impossibly frivolous and retro romantic in rainy and utilitarian Northern Europe).

People who understand who they are tend to always look coherent, no matter what they wear. For someone that means baggy and rumpled, for others streamlined and pared down. I look like a homeless person in anything baggy and rumpled. My friend who is the same height and weight but different shape and coloring looks stunning in Eileen Fisher - voluminous and shapeless clothes in grays and greiges.

It's great to see other APC fans here on mumsnet!
I had just finished reading the 'frumpy' thread and was fascinated by what the MN take on my favourite styles would be! In all honesty I can quite visualize what frumpy even is, as most of the items suggested in the thread seemed pretty ok to me...

When I first discovered APC it was a though someone had taken the concept of how I wanted to dress and made it come to life. A lot of the dresses swamp me a bit, lengthwise (i'm 5"4) but I do love how there is much less emphasis on 'sexiness' with the brand, or at least not in the most obvious sense.
I purchase around 2 or 3 new pieces per year, my little luxuries, and am currently trying to decide between the denim Nancy dress and the beige half moon bag. It isn't easy when you can't have both!

can't quite visualize oops

Oh, I am also wondering why the idea of 'utility chic' might be ok in twenties but not forties? Or maybe that's just a personal thing? I find that their clothes are more relevant to me now than when I was younger. I work from home though, perhaps lifestyle is a factor more than age. They always strike me as more casual than corporate, if you see what i mean.

petit ,MN covers a big demographic, different tastes,styles and ages .its bound to generate different opinions, I wouldn't take anything deemed frumpy by MN as gospel, because no one knows how I will wear/style a specific item of clothing. but I will listen very closely to people who know my style and have seen me dressed and can visualise if a single item suits me or not,

Age has nothing to do with it, we naturally tone down abit when we grow old and pick things that suits our 30s or 40s and so on, it's the same style but in a different out look,

I like the nancy dress too, why don't you take advantage of the € and cross the channel and get both the bag and dress? will be significantly cheaper

If we start from the top and examine high end desginers like valentino and chloe There is no denial that there is a strong austerity influence going around,and at the same time a lot of attention is given to details/fabrics/how clothes are finished, more than how clothes are desgined, this is the key to producing a good item of clothing. a skirt or dress made of superior silk and wool mix cloque, will hold it shape better than a cheapish mmf one,

But it's difficult to try and imitate this entire vibe in the high street world, and this I think is where frumpiness happens, imitating the exterior instead of relaying on all the essential elements.

I live in a place where extreme austerity and reserve is considered very chic. The simplest possible cuts, best materials, and a restricted palette are seen as signs of good taste. But this only works if you have high quality materials and access to alterations and are able to build outfits that speak volumes without needing to resort to a 'pop of color' and 'a statement necklace'. (As a foreigner, I will never be able to master the nuances of what is considered bon ton around here.) Obviously high street cannot do this (though H&M are really trying with COS) and fast fashion and changes in how clothes are made have made it difficult for those high-quality middle-market ranges to survive. I am really happy that some still do, and try to keep buying my staples from them, although fast fashion is very tempting.

When I look at what some fashion editors themselves wear, it is often those ultra pared down clothes. Think of Elin Kling and Vanessa Traina. Of course there are editors too who love gaudy stuff too, but I wouldn't label minimalist and austere tendencies frumpy. It think they demand a lot more from the wearer - taste, eye, maintenance. In some sense they are much less forgiving.

Sharing Elin Kling's frumpy picks with MN Ms Traina is even worse

santamarianovella You're right. My taste hasn't altered all that much since my twenties, but I do tend to style things differently now, not so much consciously, but more so because of what I'd probably refer to as natural changes as I've grown older. I still wear quite short skirts sometimes, but will wear them with opaques, flat/low shoes and less fitted tops. I suppose the changes come intuitively, not particularly as a result of cultural 'rules'.

I spent many years comparing the high street to higher end. And whilst many higher end, expensive items have let me down, or not lived up to expectation, the majority of them are undeniably my favourite pieces. These don't have to be NAP designer either: my best silk dresses and knits have been from Jaeger.
I am one of those people who yearn for a certain amount of simplicity, for the clothes to be lovely but easy to wear, if that makes sense. APC seems to cater to that, for me. I think it's about learning what we feel most confident wearing, when something speaks to our true identity - whatever that is!

I can't always afford to buy top quality things, but I tend to reserve a larger sum (when i can) for something 'special' to me, as opposed to plenty of cheaper things, that often add up, over time, to the same price as the more expensive thing. Sometimes that 'special' item is actually cheap and cheerful (my snake flats from BHS), but most often it swings the other way around.

As for frump, I don't judge. I'm not in any position to, and if we all had the same tastes this world would be a tedious place.

Oh, I am also wondering why the idea of 'utility chic' might be ok in twenties but not forties? Or maybe that's just a personal thing?

It is partly personal taste, but in your 20s you look sexy and pretty whatever you're wearing, it's easy to pull off utility/librarian, at 40+ you can end up just looking Prisoner Cell Block H.

Marni & Prada have some lovely things, but some things do just look frumpy.

Prisoner cell block H - haha, I don't look like the lovely Lizzie just yet! Soon, maybe soon....

Several of my best wearing pieces have come from Jaeger too. Which is a bit weird because I don't really consider it very 'me'. The dresses are cut nicely, tend to feel good on and wash well - all of which is a sign of good quality, I suppose. I like to think of myself as a bit more boho than Jaeger but perhaps not!

AddTo - I agree about Jaeger. Worn together, their clothes can look very frumpy but individual pieces are beautifully cut and a very good price for what they are. I have a handful of things by Jaeger that are rarely off my back but never worn together. I've been buying their stuff since I was in my early twenties, even though it was definitely where you granny shopped in those days.

but what happened to the boutique line?
I enjoyed that, it was a bit more 'me' than the regular.

They were sold last year or year before and seem to have simplified all their lines into just Jaeger, I think.

Jaeger Boutique was one of the mid-range casualties - high-end designers created diffusion lines to make money by catering for the masses and mass market chains like H&M and Zara catered for everybody and also created more aspirational and quality-oriented lines (COS for example). Everyone's costs increased, few people were really willing to pay for quality, and companies who handled outsourcing, volume, quick turnaround and marketing better survived. And maybe Jaeger Boutique was more in step with the early 2000s retro comeback - that was really a niche market.

That's a shame, i think it toned down the formality of Jaeger and the items I purchased were excellent design and quality. I recall feeling this let down after Aubin & Wills made an exit. Since closing it, Jack Wills have really gone downhill, especially the quality of the fabrics. I miss their affordable silk!

My mum wears a loaf of Jaeger and it looks great on her, cut very well, but it's too conservative for me. It's basically lawyer uniform.

I wear their trousers though.

My mum loves jaeger too,loves their knitwear and trousers, it really suits her and quality is very good,

petit ,good British mid range desginers are almost non existent these days, the only one I can think of are chinti and Parker but they are extremly limited style wise, and then you have MIH, i like that are producing clothes other than jeans, quality is great. But other than that I simply can't think of a good British mid range designers, That doesn't look conservative, or look like they been specifically desgined with the duchess of Cambridge in mind,

It's just so easy to turn to french or scandi mid range designers like Sandro,APC or philipa k. They just look so appealing and fresh,unique and just easy to wear,